Small cyclone system...WIP

[Woodbloke]

Whilst furkerling around at the back of the garden tool shed the other day I came across a 'Dust Commander' cyclone which I 'acquired' when I worked for Ax a few years ago. At the time I rigged up a decent system that worked well, but the collection drum was never satisfactory and it was far too small so it was taken apart and the cyclone was deposited at the back of the tool shed to be forgotten....or so I thought.

This morning I ordered from the 'Bay of Fleas' a much more substantial 60 litre blue drum which most folk seem to use for cyclone installations and so over the last few days I've been getting a few bit's and pieces together:



...which include a set of castors from the original Numatic dust extractor, a couple of fittings and a Pressure Relief Valve wot I made. The Numatic is still in use in the 'shop but I've tucked it out the way:



...so it won't interfere with the P/T. I also found an additional hose to use, so there are two looped over the 'sky hook' and again well out of the way. Once the drum arrives, the plan is to build a trolly for it, attach the castors, fix the cyclone/pressure relief valve to the drum top and connect the hoses. A double length hose means that the nozzle end will be able to reach into the deepest, darkest nooks and crannies in the 'shop - Rob

 

[Cabinetman]

Heard but never seen one of these so I shall follow the build with interest Rob

 

[Steve Maskery]

They work well. I have one the same style as Rob's and also a Thein. Both are excellent.
To anyone thinking of building one, make sure you get a robust metal drum. Plastic ones, even pro ones for the food industry, simply don't withstand the vacuum pressure as soon as there is any kind of blockage, they simply implode.
S

 

[Doug]

The two links in the OP go to the same page.
Be interested how the dust commander performs with presumably a plastic drum? Simon Arthrell (oryx design) gave me the same cyclone back in April & I could do with a lightweight cyclone, mine are steel drums & whilst excellent they don’t make for easy transportation plus it would be handy to have cyclone extraction in the new finishing room.

 

[AndyP]

Which is why you should have a pressure release valve to protect the drum and the cyclone.
I made one from a bolt, magnet, jam jar lid and string fitted in to 100mm soil pipe between the vac and the cyclone.

 

[Mike]

They work well. I have one the same style as Rob's and also a Thein. Both are excellent.
To anyone thinking of building one, make sure you get a robust metal drum. Plastic ones, even pro ones for the food industry, simply don't withstand the vacuum pressure as soon as there is any kind of blockage, they simply implode.
S

I learned this the hard way. My dust collection system uses a 35 gallon plastic trash can to collect the dust and chips.





It worked well until something happened and the can buckled. I wasn't paying attention to the static pressure gauge I had for monitoring the system. By the time I discovered the problem, the filters and plenum were nearly filled with dust and chips.

My solution was to make a brace using plywood offcuts to strengthen the walls of the trash can. Six years later, and I haven't had any problems with the plastic can collapsing. I would prefer a metal drum, but couldn't find one that would fit in the available space.

 

[Woodbloke]

They work well. I have one the same style as Rob's and also a Thein. Both are excellent.
To anyone thinking of building one, make sure you get a robust metal drum. Plastic ones, even pro ones for the food industry, simply don't withstand the vacuum pressure as soon as there is any kind of blockage, they simply implode.
S

Agreed Steve they do...but they don't if you fit a Pressure Relief Valve as @Andy P mentioned above. The big drum in the second pic is a water butt with a fairly thin side, but with the PRV fitted it's never imploded

The big drum uses a 6mm rare earth magnet but wot I concocted for this build simply uses a:



...large steel washer, with a 6mm bolt through the middle. The face of the washer that contacts the underside of the lid is covered with a bit of:



...soft squiggly cushion flooring to hopefully make a decent air tight seal. There's a fairly weak spring to regulate the pressure under which the valve will open, controlled by a butterly nut on the top. Probably took about an hour to make, not inc the drying time for the glue on the cushion flooring - Rob

Edit - linkies fixed

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes I agree. I have a Heath-Robinson affair fitted to mine, I'll take a photo when I go over.
S

 

[Accipiter]

Heard but never seen one of these so I shall follow the build with interest Rob

My little Henry/Cyclone extraction unit... (thought I'd posted previously elsewhere... maybe not ).
This release valve in the top:



Did think about bracing internally but decided not to.

 

[Woodbloke]

That looks like a posh shop bought version; dead easy to make for nowt from gash bits lying around the 'shop. Bear also in mind that the Numatic has a 2,400W motor (nearly 3hp) and will suck out your Wisdom teeth if you get the nozzle too close to your face, so the PRV needs to act instantly if things go South- Rob

 

[fuse]

What is the view on this type of machine?

 

[Inspector]

I embraced the collapse. The cyclone is attached to the bottom of the 20 litre bucket and most of the lid cut away to hold dowels or a grate, which keeps the bag from being completely sucked up into the bucket. When the shop vac is turned on the bag is drawn up and collapses. Turn the shop vac off and the bag drops with most of the chips falling into it. When the bag is a third or so full I replace it because it is heavy enough at that point. The bags are 159 litre, 3 mil contractor bags. I get the clear ones when I can find them. It is my version of Oneidas's Dust Deputy Bagger.

Pete

 

[Doug]

I’m a total convert to cyclones bought my first a Oneida dust deputy around 17 years ago



It’s under the bench & serves the chopsaw & the hose that hangs down above the bench.

The second also off another shop vac is between the bandsaw & spindle moulder & is used for general clean up & tools that can’t be used off the power take off of the first cyclone vac.




Lastly & the newest is the cyclone on the HVLP extractor which I converted 4 years ago



Having read the problems folks have had with plastic bins I’ve gone for steel drums but am happy to try a plastic one for the right money.
For me the time they save & the cost saving in filter bags is so well worth while.

 

[Inspector]

What is the view on this type of machine?
View attachment 58913

Most of the discussion has been about High Pressure Low Volume collection, HPLV for short, using vacuum cleaners of one sort or another. They don't move a lot of air but produce high suction up to in some machines of 160 inches of water column lift, most are in the 80 to 100 inch range. You'll have to do the conversion to metric values you are comfortable with. The machine you are showing is a small example of a High Volume Low Pressure collector, HVLP. They at most have a 20" water column draw (5 or more horse power to achieve numbers like that) but more usually 8". When choked off to use the small adaptors they move very little air thus are largely ineffective. They are barely adequate with no restriction. They are best suited for small planers, thicknessers, drum sanders, etc where lots of airflow is needed to capture the waste and don't really come into their own until 3hp (2hp if right beside the machine) or more. Unless you have a very good system you should wear a respirator while in the shop even after you have shut down the machines. Dust floats for a considerable time when the work stops.

Pete

 

[Accipiter]

That looks like a posh shop bought version; dead easy to make for nowt from gash bits lying around the 'shop. Bear also in mind that the Numatic has a 2,400W motor (nearly 3hp) and will suck out your Wisdom teeth if you get the nozzle too close to your face, so the PSV needs to act instantly if things go South- Rob

Didn't have the 'gash' pieces knocking about Rob - nor the time - to do one like yours... (nor the know how at the time - remedied now thanks to your post ). So far () had no problems with it (so far )

 

[MattS]

View attachment 58903

You been in my workshop?! That’s identical to my set up experienced the implosion with a previous much lighter weight drum. Those plastic ones are really tough and I find with a ply internal bracing there isn’t an implosion issue anymore.

 

[duke]

Here is mine using a large metal trash can.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Is that tub ribbed? If so, it will improve the rigidity no end.
S

 

[duke]

I would guess slightly ribbed or pleated, here is a closeup of a similar can.

 

[wallace]

Lastly & the newest is the cyclone on the HVLP extractor which I converted 4 years ago

View attachment 58914

Having read the problems folks have had with plastic bins I’ve gone for steel drums but am happy to try a plastic one for the right money.
For me the time they save & the cost saving in filter bags is so well worth while.

Doug where is the cyclone from? I have a big axminster thing on wheels thats connected to the sawbench, problem is it looses suction through blocking the pleated filter. I thought I could cannibalise parts and add a cyclone. It is quite a powerful thing, got it cheap because the bloke said it keeps blowing the fuse in the plug. I knew it wasnt meant to run from a 3pin plug.

 

[TrimTheKing]

To back up Rob's info, and for anyone thinking metal is the only way forwards, I bought a Cyclone Central (now no longer in existence) self build cyclone which I managed to explode within a few hours after it got blocked. Because it is clear plastic the cyclone exploded before the plastic bin caved in, but the principle is the same.

They replaced the shattered bit FoC and I bought their pressure relief valve and fitted that, and have never had an issue since, the valve kicking in each time and saving both cyclone and plastic barrel.

The valve itself is so simple, a piece of plastic/wood with big holes in, a screw and a cover, and these can be bought for a couple of pounds, made for nothing like Rob or 3D printed.

Here's a good Peter Parfitt video on the same cyclone I have, the relief valve and how it works.

 

[Doug]

Doug where is the cyclone from?

Toolovation not cheap & as now I had to wait for them to get it in stock but as my dust extractor is the most used machine in the shop worth the investment for me.

 

[Woodbloke]

Having ordered the 60 litre barrel yesterday from the Bay of Fleas, DPD delivered it this morning which I thought wasn't at all shabby! Pretty impressed actually by the quality of these barrels as it's the first time I've seen one in the flesh:



The cyclone and PRV were fitted to the top first, which was pretty straight forward. Marking out a circle with dividers, a spot of chain drilling and then rasping:



...to size until it dropped into the 'ole. Then I selected an appropriate hole cutter for the PRV:



...and paid particular attention to cleaning up the underside:



...so that it was a smooth as a baby's bum to ensure a decent air tight seal. A couple of holes were drilled for the PRV steel brace and it was finished off with some posh SS domed headed nuts:



The underside looks good as well:



...as the washer just clears the bolt heads, more by accident than design. The whole thing has gone together 'dry' so the next job is to sort out some CT1 sealant to apply around the flange as shown above and underneath all the bolt head washers (yet to be fitted) - Rob

Edit - going to use hot melt glue not CT1

 

[Mike]

Toolovation not cheap & as now I had to wait for them to get it in stock but as my dust extractor is the most used machine in the shop worth the investment for me.

I ordered the Oneida SSD XL from Martin at Toolovation in 2018. He was the only vendor this side of the Atlantic who had the cyclone in stock and was willing to ship it to my German address.

 

[SteveMP]

Interesting, here in the states they sell the "Dustopper Pro" version that snaps onto the ubiquitous 5 gallon buckets that they sell everywhere here. I almost bought one once, but I so rarely use my power tools recently I haven't messed with it.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Dustopper-PRO-High-Efficiency-Cyclonic-Dust-Separator-12-in-Dia-with-2-5-in-Hose-36-in-L-with-2-High-Flow-Sweep-Elbows-HD12B/322662836

 

[Woodbloke]

After tea, I lashed the hoses in place with a few strips of tape and gave it a trial run. The PRV worked well, but the choice of spring is critical; I needed to install a slightly stronger one to get it to work correctly:



After a swift pass around the 'shop and bench, the proof of the pudding:



...is in the drum. Trolly with castors tomorrow - Rob