Bois de Steve

[Steve Maskery]

No making up your own jokes.

I have a field. It's behind the orchard. When we arrived, the orchard had half a dozen or so trees, but they had not been maintained for quite a while. Lots of intersecting branches and so on.
Last winter, my neighbour, Bob, showed me how to prune them. They look a lot better, but the result was that my harvest last year was one, singular, apple. I'm hoping for better this year...

I've also planted another 8 fruit trees - cherry, pear, fig, plum and apple, a proper English Bramley.

So I got thinking, "Why stop there?".

Neither of us are real gardeners, though we both like gardens, especially if someone else has done all the hard work. But we go to a monthly Gardening Club, mostly English, and one kind bloke has offered me pretty much as many oak trees as I want. For free (I think). I'm considereing starting with 20.

Now, back to the field. It is currently let out (for free) to our neighbour. It's left to grow hay until harvest, then her daughter's two horses move in to give their own field a bit of respite. I would like to put back into the world some of the wood I have consumed in my woodworking life and growing an orchard and a wood has long been on my wish list. I never thought I would have the opportunity, but now I have.

So I'm planning to annexe(!) a section of my field and plant it with trees. As well as the oaks, I can pretty much help myself to chestnut saplings growing wild nearby, and my friend Jeff (Jean-François, J-F, or just plain Jeff to his English friends (and, occasionally, his wife)) would like to contribute a maple and, if I understand him correctly, a Fever Tree, whatever that is. He grows fine Kiwis, too, so I'm hoping I can snaffle a next-generation off him.

Now it is too cold to plant trees, I should have done it in November, apparently, but just as soon as the ground thaws (it's -6 outside at the moment), I'd like to get planting. For a future I won't see.

Has anyone here done this? How do I decide how to plant the trees to make it look natural rather than a regimented plantation? The soil is neither rich nor deep (not helped by discovering that someone has buried a plastic bag or 6 of broken bricks and tiles just 2" under the surface - Why?).

Any experiences or advice relevant to this little adventure very much welcomed!

 

[toolsntat]

The soil is neither rich nor deep (not helped by discovering that someone has buried a plastic bag or 6 of broken bricks and tiles just 2" under the surface - Why?).

Sounds like a spurious planting of "fagus foundationous" best get em up before the Spring or you'll find yourself on top of a Roman Villa
Cheers, Andy

 

[Cabinetman]

Really sorry I can’t help but I applaud what you are trying to do Steve. What sort of an area is your field? And is it flat or a bit more interesting?
Spacing, Bulbs I’ve heard look best when thrown over the shoulder, but not sure that will work with trees lol.
If it were me I think I would try to incorporate a meandering path in the woods.
Ian

 

[AndyP]

My thoughts are not based on experience .
Are all the saplings you plant going to survive the first few years?
I wouldn’t worry about a somewhat regimented planting, you can always thin out in a few years.
Make sure you leave room to get what ever grass cutting machinery you have between the trees.
Will you have to protect against new shoot loving mammals from devouring the saplings?
Great idea I hope it’s a success.

 

[PAC1]

We planted 1500 trees in 2020 they are now 3 to 5m tall. In the UK you get a grant. I am not sure about France. Things to think about are:
1. What might eat them and what can you do to protect them
2. Stakes. I only used small 25mm square stakes.
3. Guards quickly become the problem. If you use the mesh ones the trees grow through them and then you have problems. If you use the solid plastic ones the voles think you love them a nice warm shelter and you have provided us with food as well.
4. Strim around them but do not kill all the grass. It saved us two years ago in the hot weather as the grass kept the soil from drying too much.
Enjoy

 

[RogerS]

After consulting my inhouse expert - aka Mrs S - my Go-to website for this sort of information is the RHS.

Search the RHS website for gardening knowledge / RHS

Use the search on the RHS website for advice and knowledge of all your gardening needs

www.rhs.org.uk

 

[Tiresias]

We have a bit of an arboretum by our Borders house. It extends further than this, but this is the photo I have to hand.



Planted by our predecessors, so about 20 to 30 years growth. Various species, chosen for their appearance. Lots of birches and maples. Rubbish soil, acidic. I think the planting is a bit over dense, but that is easily solved.

The one thing I do remember being told is that if you want to make it look natural don’t think about it. It will always look contrived. You know, when you ask a tiler to put random accent tiles in – never looks random. Chuck a handful of white stones in a expressive way over your shoulder, and plant where they fall. Or do the same thing with beads on a plan. Don’t try and regularise it.

Are you intending to use the wood? For fire wood, birch is a good choice, coppiced an acre can give you all the firewood you will ever need. An odd one, but a chap has field or two over at Drumelzier for willow (biomass). Fast growing, and you could be self-sufficient in baskets and cricket bats. It is a flood plain, mind you.

Protection from deer is also a big consideration here. Matbe the same where you are?

Oh, and good luck with terminating a French (putatively) agricultural lease. Which is probably undocumented.

 

[Mike G]

Steve, I've been involved in the planting of a couple of woods, as well as with a non-planted new wood. The latter proved the most successful.........it was just a section of field adjacent to a woodland which was fenced off and left. It actually developed a little bit quicker than the woods we planted with saplings.

My only advice is to keep the deer and boar (and obviously domestic animals and livestock) out for 10 or 15 years. We used Heras fencing. Deer and squirrels are the biggest problem here, but in Asturias, cattle and wild boar are the issue. You won't have a squirrel problem.

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. Great idea. Like PAC1 I planted quite a lot on a farm we lived at in Surrey. Nearly all bought as whips with the planting grant available. We planted several hundred to create a mixed species hedge and a local man helped as he was a hedge and woodland type of guy. Planting method was poke glorified stick in ground, shove the whip in, with spiral sleeve. This was 30 years ago and it's a proper hedge now. We did about 70 oaks along a driveway and they are decent trees now. And a similar number of mixed species including walnut, copper beech, various maples dotted around. These were from slightly larger pot grown plants. Deer protection was essential. Those planted in fields where we kept our horses all had to have a fence round them so the horses could not reach the tree. Horses are unbelievably curious and destructive. Cattle likewise.

In current ornamental garden we've planted a few hundred beech and hornbeam as hedging plants. All of these were bought by the pallet as bare root plants. When I say "we" I mean Mrs AJBT. All in carefully prepared soil with the microrhyzome (sp?) powder that is well worth using btw. Likewise quite a few maybe 3 dozen, yew trees and various other stuff. All protected from rabbits. If you don't protect from rabbits they will eat the young bark and kill the plant. Deer are a real pain and if you have deer nearby you will need to protect the area with some deer fencing until the trees establish. With oaks you will get a decent small tree inside 10 years. Both oaks and horse chestnuts grow extremely easily from acorns and conkers, so always shove some in compost pots every year. We get lots of babies coming up out of the ground and often dig these up and pot on. The squirrels plant them.....

My advice is 1 use the root establishment powder and plant carefully if you want accelerated results.
2 Plant a number of spares in pots. You will lose some trees and these will be your back up.
3 Leave enough space to get a zero turn ride on mower between them if planted as trees (vs hedges).

Water in the first year if necessary. After that leave them alone.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Thanks, guys.
I'm not sure what the area is, but I can easily find out. It has a slight slope, not much, it's reasonably flat and even - in contrast to the orchard, which is all lumpy-bumpy, very tufty and impossible to mow properly. It's not in any way "interesting".
You'd think there would be lots of wildlife round here, but there isn't. Birds, yes, and there is a hunt, so there must be something, somewhere but I've seen deer just a couple of times since we got here.Never seen a boar. Rabbits have been hunted to extinction.
When they are in the field, Patricia's horses are contained by an electric fence.
S

 

[Blackswanwood]

if I understand him correctly, a Fever Tree, whatever that is.

I am pretty sure it is a tree that produces quinine which is where Fever Tree tonic came up with their name.

Is there a French equivalent of the Woodlands Trust? If so they may be a good source of advice.

Hopefully you will have many years watching it develop but if you want to make sure it is there for future generations can you protect it with a restrictive covenant in your deeds?

 

[Mike G]

...... Both oaks and horse chestnuts grow extremely easily from acorns and conker.....The squirrels plant them.....

Interestingly, jays are far and away the biggest planters of acorns.....but yes, squirrels help in this regard.

 

[Mike G]

I am pretty sure it is a tree that produces quinine which is where Fever Tree tonic came up with their name.....

That may be the case, but the fever tree I know is a southern African tree. It has spines on its bark. I was told that it grows in swampy areas, which is where mosquitoes breed. Before people understood malaria, they blamed the tree..........hence the name.

 

[Tiresias]

I am pretty sure it is a tree that produces quinine which is where Fever Tree tonic came up with their name.

Fever trees used to (probably still do) grow in Zambia when I was a child. I always assumed they were so called because they grew in swampy areas where you got fever (malaria). Not because they provide quinine. Which I think used to be called Jesuits’ Bark. Presumably worse than their bite. Different species I think.

My partner will know, having devoted a life time to researching malaria. But is not available at the moment.

EDIT: Ha, Mike pre-empted me.

 

[Malc2098]

I've just planted a few fruit trees as feathered maidens. One is a fan, two are cordon's and the last is a semi-dwarf bush. The supplier's own website was a wealth of information as was the RHS's.

 

[Phil]

That may be the case, but the fever tree I know is a southern African tree. It has spines on its bark. I was told that it grows in swampy areas, which is where mosquitoes breed. Before people understood malaria, they blamed the tree..........hence the name.

Fever Tree - Vachellia xanthophloea (previously Acacia xanthophloea)

Vachellia xanthophloea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They mess, grow huge, do not plant near roads or buildings.

Not sure how well it would do in your cold and snow.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ah, is the wood very light? Low density? If so, I've seen them in Sierra Leone. Or maybe it was Zambia, it was a long time ago, I get mixed up now. Very sharp spines, like shark fins. There was one growing in the middle of the playground of the school, they used to remove the spines so that the children did not get hurt. It was a huge tree.
S

 

[Lurker]

Regarding your fruit trees, now you know how to prune they will regenerate, you need to be patient but I bet you will see improvement year on year.
Also you will get glut and famine with the crop.
By the way, those apple trees you gave me are doing well, I might graft onto them this year.

 

[HdV]

I have done what you are thinking about. It is great to see the saplings grow into trees! But, apart from the recommendations to protect them from deer and other animals (a good portion of our saplings got damaged by deer trying to get the skin off their antlers) and use root starters, you also need to take into consideration the changing climate. Not all types of tree that did well in the past will be able to cope with summers that are getting dryer and winters that are getting wetter. It would be a good idea to get yourself informed as to which trees will be doing OK in your area in the future before making a selection.

We had a selection of field maple (Acer campestre), aspen (Populus tremula)), walnut (Juglans regia), sweet chestnut (Castanea sativa) and a whole host of fruittrees. If you are thinking of selecting fig, then be aware that they really don't like frost. Many types of fig can bear fruit (officially it isn't a fruit) twice each season. The buds of the first batch are formed in the previous year. These buds can withstand a little bit of frost, if it isn't too wet, but often they will just whither. You wrote about -6°C. In that case you will definitely need to protect the tree from the wind and frost if you want to be successful in getting them to fruit abundantly.

This is just from experience. I am in no way a professional gardener. Things might be different where you live.

 

[Steve Maskery]

By the way, those apple trees you gave me are doing well, I might graft onto them this year.

Oh jolly good. I can't remember what I gave you. Were they off my family tree/ Bramley, Christmas Pippin and something beginning with S, I forget.
I brought a few scions with me. Most failed, but a few took, until my wonderful neighbour offered to cut the grass and strafed averything
S

 

[Lurker]

Two birds with one stone, dig out the bricks and use the holes for your new trees.
Regimented rows are no bad thing if you mix the species.
The hay meadow followed by horses is very ecological. You might consider planting meadow flowers that thrive with being cut at harvest time.

 

[Steve Maskery]

If you are thinking of selecting fig, then be aware that they really don't like frost. Many types of fig can bear fruit (officially it isn't a fruit) twice each season. The buds of the first batch are formed in the previous year. These buds can withstand a little bit of frost, if it isn't too wet, but often they will just whither. You wrote about -6°C. In that case you will definitely need to protect the tree from the wind and frost if you want to be successful in getting them to fruit abundantly.

Thank you for that. It is well pretected from the wind, south-facing on a wall. Currently no more than 50cm high (the fig, not the wall). It survived last winter, but, of course, no fruit yet.
S

 

[Lurker]

Oh jolly good. I can't remember what I gave you. Were they off my family tree/ Bramley, Christmas Pippin and something beginning with S, I forget.
I brought a few scions with me. Most failed, but a few took, until my wonderful neighbour offered to cut the grass and strafed averything
S

They were unlabelled in pots and looking very sorry for themselves, I seem to remember that there was a dry spell at the time.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ah yes, I remember. Well they were probably from my friend Stuart, and yes, anonymous. How tall are they now?

This is the plot:


The red area is the orchard, about 600 m2, the yellow is the field, about 2000m2. I'm thinking of using about a quarter of it, left-hand end.
S

 

[Mike G]

Have you thought about planting a triangle, Steve, rather than a square/ rectangle? The reason I suggest thinking about this is that the corners of fields are less accessible to large pieces of farm machinery such as tractors/ ploughs, sprayers, and combines, so (my logic goes), any planting in those corners is likely to be tolerated by future farmers, whereas planting which leaves a relatively small not-easily-farmed space is more likely to be grubbed up in the future .

 

[greeno]

If you're there 5 years plus, have you thought about black truffle infected trees?

Buy Truffle Trees

Buy truffle trees and access consultancy to help your truffle plantation thrive

plantationsystems.com

 

[Lurker]

Have you thought about planting a triangle, Steve, rather than a square/ rectangle? The reason I suggest thinking about this is that the corners of fields are less accessible to large pieces of farm machinery such as tractors/ plouhs, sprayers, and combines, so (my logic goes), any planting in those corners is likely to be tolerated by future farmers, whereas planting which leaves a relatively small not-easily-farmed space is more likely to be grubbed up in the future .

I agree.
Personally, I’d make small “plantations” across each corner.

 

[Blackswanwood]

That may be the case, but the fever tree I know is a southern African tree. It has spines on its bark. I was told that it grows in swampy areas, which is where mosquitoes breed. Before people understood malaria, they blamed the tree..........hence the name.

I think we may be talking about different trees ...

The fever tree: help us transcribe a bit of history | Kew

PhD Student Kim Walker provides an introduction into a plant sourced anti-malarial medication, Kew’s Cinchona collections and asks for your help…

www.kew.org

Interesting that both have a connection to Malaria - there must be a pub quiz question in there ...

 

[AJB Temple]

If you can get a shedload of whips, then also plant a natural hedge around the perimieter, with a couple of specimen trees in it. Maybe one dramatic specimen tree in the field too, in a viewline from the house.

 

[Woodbloke]

Great idea Steve. I can't add much to the conversation but I wonder if walnut trees would do well? - Rob

 

[Lurker]

If you can get a shedload of whips, then also plant a natural hedge around the perimieter, with a couple of specimen trees in it. Maybe one dramatic specimen tree in the field too, in a viewline from the house.

When I had my hedge laying business, I’d often prune out 20 - 30 two foot long straight lengths of hawthorn before I got down to the real work.
These were just tied into a rough bundle and heeled in a trench at home.
Most would root and I could sell them maybe two years later.
My point is , you might have 50% success but the effort was minimal.

 

[HdV]

Yeah, a hedge would we a very good idea. It offers shelter to all kinds of birds and small animals and it will break the wind (no, not that one), shielding your new trees. On the other hand: our hedge is always full of great and blue tits that are just waiting for the fruit to be ripe enough. Once it is, there's a veritable attack on the fruit. It is weird, because they only take a few picks of each fruit. But that is enough to make the fruit rot.

Another thing to remember: many people tend to plant trees way too close to each other. Make sure you leave enough space between them.

And if there are any juniperus communis within 500 metres, then you'll need to make sure you have species that are able to resist rust. Believe me, you'll really want to.

 

[HdV]

If the bricks are hard to get out and you are planning to do that yourself, then I highly recommend getting a pick axe. Doing that job with a spade or shovel will wear you out. I tried to when I had to remove a stretch of compacted debris from our land, but gave up quite quickly and got me a pick axe. I can tell you, there are few tools in my shop I was so glad to have as that pick axe.

 

[AndyP]

Rather than a pickaxe I would recommend a mattock. The wider blade of the mattock can be really useful for extra leverage and for hacking away at tree roots.

 

[HdV]

Ah, learned something today. What I have is indeed a mattock. Never knew they were called that. Not a native speaker...

 

[Windows]

Sounds like a great project. The reason to keep horses and oaks separate is not just to protect the tree. Acorns and oak leaves are poisonous to horses. Many horses are smart enough to not eat them, but not all.

 

[Steve Maskery]

The bags of bricks are not in the area I'm going to plant.
Nice idea about the hedge and specimen trees. Unnfortunately, none of this will be visible from the house, it's all behind my barn.
I do have a pickaxe and small mattock.
S

 

[Woodbloke]

Rather than a pickaxe I would recommend a mattock. The wider blade of the mattock can be really useful for extra leverage and for hacking away at tree roots.

A favourite tool of my archaeologist daughter; she keeps one in the corner of her lounge - Rob

 

[Steve Maskery]

I had the bright idea of asking Copilot. Here is the exchange:

"I live in south-west France and would like to plant about 22 oak trees to make a new wood. Are there any grants available to help with this?"

That sounds like a wonderful project! In France, there are several grants and incentives available to support tree planting and woodland creation projects. Here are a few options you might consider:

1. France Relance Stimulus Program: This program includes a forestry component aimed at combating climate change and promoting environmental sustainability. You can check if your project qualifies for funding under this initiative2.
2. Regional Woodland Restoration Innovation Fund: Administered by the Forestry Commission, this fund supports various woodland restoration projects. You can find more information on their website.
3. International Tree Foundation: While primarily focused on community forestry projects in the UK and Africa, they might have resources or partnerships that could be beneficial for your project.
4. Local Government and Environmental Organizations: It's also worth reaching out to local government offices and environmental organizations in your area. They may have specific grants or funding opportunities available for tree planting and woodland creation.

I recommend contacting these organizations directly to get detailed information on eligibility criteria and application processes. Good luck with your project!

Not bad for a robot, eh?

 

[Lurker]

Except robots have never dealt with French bureaucrats ( well not without blowing a fuse!).