Jimmy Mack's 'Shop Build (photos & video)

[Rod]

Looking good - must have been hard work in this hot weather?

Plenty of Tadcaster Ales[emoji39]

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Ah, yes Rod!...I forgot to mention the HEAT! I had to switch to painting the interior window frames yesterday late morning as it was too scorchio trying to clad the final south facing side!

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[Tusses]

Looking good !

did you consider biscuiting the scarf joints ?

 

[Jimmy Mack]

OK, I'm onto the roof... an area of cluelessness. I would appreciate any tips and if possible not too much laughing and pointing [emoji1]

I started to draw up a detail for the verge on the computer but it was looking like a dog's dinner...so

...turning to my Collin's DIY Bible (cue flaming[emoji85] ...it's actually a great book!... [emoji41] )

I've found and lifted an illustration...

This is essentially what I'd like to do on my verge, a cement fillet (maybe dyed... ?...not blue! But black or dark grey).

Then underneath I'd like to park my (blue) barge board.

(Of course, Swap out the bricks for cladding)


Some questions...

How much overlay should my tiles overhang the barge board?

Will I need to 'sillycone' the junction of the board and the tiles? (I'd rather not)

Mike, I think you touched on this, but will my cement fillet be problematic with the cement (Cembrit) tiles?

And...is there a particular mix I should use for the fillet?

Many thanks,

Jim

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[Jimmy Mack]

Looking good !

did you consider biscuiting the scarf joints ?

Thanks Tusses.

It didn't cross my mind...hopefully they'll be OK...my main concern was water ingress on the end grain, the joints feel quite strong what with being captivated either side...perhaps I'll should brush over some Barrentine preservative in-case they open up.

Jim

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[9fingers]

My amateur gut feel is that a mortar fillet won't stick very well between two layers of fibre cement tiles.

When I did my workshop with fibre cement tiles, I used plastic soffit protector under the end of the tile rows and screwed it into the face of the barge board. The screws gave it a bit of a pleated look - not ideal but it was black plastic onto creosoted boards. Your bright blue might provide too much of a contrast?

I expect Mike will be along with a proper answer soon :lol:

Bob

 

[Jimmy Mack]

My amateur gut feel is that a mortar fillet won't stick very well between two layers of fibre cement tiles.
Bob

I'm with you on this Bob...especially now I've thought about it over the weekend :?

There's the dry verge systems, but where they appear a straight forward fit, they (IMO) look a bit plastic and naff...



I'm currently looking at the 'Easy Verge' system (sounds very 'JML' / Shopping channel :lol: ), but I don't quite understand how I finish off at the ridge?

http://www.roofingsuppliesuk.co.uk/pitched-roofs/easy-verge/

Might need to call the supplier.

Jim

 

[Deejay]

Morning Jim

Marley do an installation guide for 'slate' and tiles.

https://www.marleyeternit.co.uk/~/media ... 0Guide.pdf

Any good?

Cheers

Dave

 

[9fingers]

My amateur gut feel is that a mortar fillet won't stick very well between two layers of fibre cement tiles.
Bob

I'm with you on this Bob...especially now I've thought about it over the weekend :?

There's the dry verge systems, but where they appear a straight forward fit, they (IMO) look a bit plastic and naff...



I'm currently looking at the 'Easy Verge' system (sounds very 'JML' / Shopping channel :lol: ), but I don't quite understand how I finish off at the ridge?

http://www.roofingsuppliesuk.co.uk/pitched-roofs/easy-verge/

Might need to call the supplier.

Jim

When I did my workshop roof, the ridge fitting to match my fibre cement slates were stupidly expensive and I needed 10m worth which I think was dearer than all the slates!

I fitted a 300mm strip of lead (DPM would have worked too) across the ridge and then used upturned black 100mm 1/2 round gutter secured with screws and sealing washers into the ridge board. It has proved effective and cheap.

Bob

 

[Jimmy Mack]

When I did my workshop roof, the ridge fitting to match my fibre cement slates were stupidly expensive and I needed 10m worth which I think was dearer than all the slates!

I fitted a 300mm strip of lead (DPM would have worked too) across the ridge and then used upturned black 100mm 1/2 round gutter secured with screws and sealing washers into the ridge board. It has proved effective and cheap.

Bob

Chatting to Cembrit this morning and they advise a 'Vented Ridge Tile', even though the sample sent wasn't.

Indeed Bob...very pricy! £15 for 525mm cover (I require 12-14!). I like your method, but I'm not sure if it will be wide enough to cover my 150mm ridge - maybe :eusa-think:



I asked Cembrit if venting the ridge is absolutely necessary, I was advised that there is potential for the Fibre Cement tiles to twist/buckle/warp if un-vented (?)... I wonder if MikeG has a view on this?

Jim

 

[Pinch]

Looking pretty darn good JIm.

 

[Dan0741]

Jim, Im a bit behind on my posts for my build but I have just covered this ground with much help from contributors here. For what its worth these are my thoughts. I haven't used a barge board, my detail is the same as Mikes workshop and i have about 50mm overhang from the undercloaking to the wooden cladding boards; my boards go horizontally and you may need more overhang given the vertical cladding you are using. I haven't found the need for silicone whatsoever at this junction. Not that mine has been up all that long but the mortar has stuck fine with the inch or so gap between the verge roof slates and the undercloaking. I have used natural slate so may be slightly different in terms of the mortar "sticking". Remember to get the roofing battens to end at the right place as i made them too short and had to construct a workarround. My fillet of mortar is probably about 2 inches deep into the roof (longitudinal?) and one inch high between undercloak and roof slate. I made my mix for the roof 3/1 sand/cement. A pointer here (especially as you may dye) your mortar, would be make sure you mix enough and dont leave any gaps anywhere where you have to go back to. Its unlikely that your mix will be quite the same shade and will detract from the overall look. I know this is just my experience but i have spent the last few months looking at all the slate rooves i can find and the system seems to stand the test of time.

Ridge - I fumbled about with this for weeks and eventually decided on a dry fit ventilated roof ridge. Its complicated to fit but it just takes a bit of thought and patience. I used this...

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/pro ... -pack.html

but there are plenty of alternatives. This one comes in 10 m length as i needed longer than the standard 6m and didnt want a join. I then used the...

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/pro ... -grey.html

ridge tiles, they worked fine.

I like the system and it saves the time and grief taken by using mortar on a slate ridge when single handed and moving from one end to another down a 2 foot unslated strip mortaring as you go!

Your build is lovely and the cedar install is really impressive looking.

Kind regards,

Dan

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Here's a question...

Barge boards meeting at a mitre at the pitch.

Are they jointed to (try and) prevent the mitre opening up?

Some kind of finial / Dingle dangle spike is an alternative, but I'm not really that keen...I'd like to keep it simple.

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[Jimmy Mack]

Dan, Thanks for you detailed comments, very useful. I'll check out the ridge detail too when I'm on the big computer.

The fibre cement does have a plastic/ non-slip feel, so I think it might be safer for me to abandon any kind of cement fillet.

Jim

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[Mike G]

Sorry Jim, I've not had any time......

With a slate roof I wouldn't have any undercloaking. There is simply nothing for the mortar to get a proper grip on. Overhang the slate over the barge boards by 50mm or so, and put a silicon bead at the junction. One reason I haven't completed my workshop roof is that I will have to remove the undercloak that I fitted in preparation for slating, and replace with bargeboards.

 

[Dan0741]

Sorry Mike - May I clarify what it was that took you down the undercloak/mortar route initially and have now elected to follow the bargeboard/silicone method? I only ask as I had taken more note of this than usual locally and it appears there is more commonality with your initial strategy. Dan

 

[Mike G]

There aren't many slate rooves around here, and I'm no fan of the material, so I actually have relatively little experience of using the stuff. The few times I have used it or drawn it I have always detailed it with a slate undercloak and pointing at the verge, but a recent conversation with an experienced roofer led me to a re-think. He suggested that I look closely at all such details I see on existing buildings, and see if I can find pointing which isn't cracked............which I did, and they were all cracked. His theory is that you are trapping hard mortar between two slip planes, with virtually nothing for it to get a grip on.

If it is a common local detail around you, then can I suggest that you get some chicken wire or similar, make a roll of it, and stuff it into the gap between undercloak and slate before you do your pointing. This should help hold it together. I know it isn't much of a gap, and there are battens in the way, so this job will be awkward, but I think it would be worthwhile.

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Thanks for the replies.

I've decided to go with an 'easy verge' or something very similar.

http://www.permavent.co.uk/easy-verge/

Been working on my barge boards, thicknessed some of the spare C16 rafters to 36mm. Along with some PSE for the facias, which I have run grooves in to receive 9mm ply soffits, I have brushed with preservative, knotting, primer, filled with polyester car body filler, rubbed back and painted...

...BLUE! [emoji41]

The bro popped round to help get the fronts barges up...

I ripped some of the spare cladding to stand off the barges and meet my corner details

First strip then squirted in some PU into the grooves ...in the hope to stop buggies... the second strip to cover squeeze out...

Jointed barge boards at ridge with biscuits (for what it's worth), cut ends treated...chamfered the ends so the joints make a 'VEE'...an attempt to celebrate the join, should it decide to open! ...as a plus it goes nicely with the T&G door style. [emoji1]

Detail of stand off/ shadow gap...

Full shot with swanky Bay trees (the 'woman's touch' from management).

I'm off to celebrate turning 40.

Back on it next week when the head clears up [emoji85] [emoji1]

Cheers, Jim







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[Rod]

Don't forget to water the trees!
[emoji3]

Rod

 

[Malc2098]

Many Happy Returns!

 

[DaveL]

Oh look, more blue. [emoji106] [emoji122]

 

[AndyP]

I like the way you have got the sky to match the colour of the barge boards.

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Working on the fascias and soffits with over fascia vents and protector today...it's been really awkward with just the one pair of hands.

Relieved to get to the end of the day...I lay a couple of tiles on to get a look at the road ahead and...gah!...I think I've done a big boo-boo! Balls! I don't think I've gone high enough with my facia?!

Have I messed up...?

Can I? Should I do this?

A slightly confused, Jim

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[Mike G]

It's that lower batten that's the problem, isn't it? Do away with that, and add a piece to the top of the fascia, dressing the membrane and eaves carriers over it, and see if that works. The lower end of the bottom slate should be supported by the top edge of the fascia. The eaves are always such a difficult detail to get right.

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Thanks Mike, you're right.

I've just been outside for a head scratch...and the right way is to add a strip to the top of the facia. Any jiggery at this stage is likely to unhinge me down the road...

This means pulling off the protector, and over facia vents...which I had great fun nailing on (insert donkey face)...

Thankfully they're not annular ring shanks ...

One step forward, two steps back...

As Mike says, a difficult detail...so... those folk on this detail... stay focused and keep thinking ahead!

Jim

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[Mike G]

One way to get the adjustment that you will need to get the top of the fascia to the right level would be to add a piece to the face to the fascia, rather than sitting it on top. This way you could move it up and down to the right position, and you will also have a simpler decorating job, in that it's better to make a show of a junction than to try to hide it.

 

[Dan0741]

Jimmy - for what its worth I really struggled loads with this bit. I ended up moving my Facia up and down twice, but in fairness that doesn't look quite as easy with your build. I was shamefully lacking in experience when it came to this bit and any amount of you tube or web research didn't provide much guidance.

I ended up waiting for my slate to arrive on site and them constructed a mock up of the eaves detail. I made the facia adjustable and then sought to ascertain what height it should be and then transpose that to my build.

What complicates this for you is that the facia height is dependent on the slating plan you have. For example, I used a row of eaves or starter slates, this can affect the height of the facia.

I don't have a magic calculation for the position of the facia but its directly related to your slate installation and to work that out I would do the mock up.

I think what is usual with slates is to do a starter course of shorter slates that are nailed to a batten next to the first true batten. With this arrangement you either need a fillet, slightly thicker batten or facia to support the first row of slates. I found that if a batten was used (I didn't, I used the facia) then this needed to be the thickness of a slate thicker than all the other battens at the same gauge.

As I think has been said already its a difficult detail to get visually right, and more importantly effective against the weather.

You have made great progress and it looks lovely

Dan

 

[Mike G]

.......I think what is usual with slates is to do a starter course of shorter slates that are nailed to a batten next to the first true batten. ........

The other way is to use full sized slates "lying down"...ie turned 90 degrees, fixed in the way you describe.

Just a point about nailing slates down: the idea isn't to fasten them tight to the battens. Think of them more as picture hooks, with the slates hanging from them. There should be a little give or movement in a slate roof, otherwise you risk the slates breaking and having to use tingles. The idea of packing the bottom batten to clear the starter course of slates means you are probably nailing too tightly. On the other hand, the nails shouldn't stick up too proud, or the slate above will be resting on them, and not on the slate. This is just as bad a mistake.

 

[Deejay]

Good morning Jim

It's not as easy as people might think to lay roofing slates. When I did mine I struggled with the eaves detail and, as Dan did, I nailed a few battens on a bit of 6 x 2 to get the spacings right. It's a lot easier to do it on the gound than on the roof itself.

He's right about the under eaves slates. Have a look at Fig. 14 on page 92 of the PDF from Marley. The first paragraph of the text explains why they are needed. Fig. 15 on page 93 shows this in cross section. Once you get the under eaves battens done, the rest are easy.

Setting out the battens, including the under eaves battens, is covered on page 87.

Fig. 23 on page 100 shows the arrangement at the ridge. If you want to avoid the bottom edge of the top slate ending in an awkward place, you can adjust the guage to suit.

You have a very nice building there. :eusa-clap:

Cheers

Dave

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Really good to hear of others difficulties and thoughts, it was a useful pick me up after yesterday shambles. In hindsight Dan's suggestion of a mock-up would of been a good idea.

I got quite a bit done today, even with a freak downpour! Both sides are now done, I just need to get the barge boards on the back. Turned out the amount (20mm) I ripped off the fascia prior to my bodged install yesterday was exactly the amount I needed to add on, lucky me! So I stuck these on. I'll upload some pix via the mobile, with a few construction details - I find it easier that way than Photobucket.

A useful website, which I've been using is ...

http://www.fixmyroof.co.uk/videos-and-guides/pitched-roof/slate-a-roof/

His videos are really clear.

I plan to put in a half tile eaves/ starter course, just need to pop a batt under my first...you'll see a mock up in the next post.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Before repair...shot...the protectors got a bit damaged...fortunately I had spare as the pack was 20.

20mm strips glued and pinned in place...

If you look close, you'll see there's a second strip...that was a primary goof from yesterday!

Rub back...

Prime...

Finish...

Over facia vents...

Protectors...

Double sided tape and membrane...

I stuck the flappy bits with pu...

Win!....here's the tile detail.

Some build shots from the otherside...

Timber strip grounds for soffit...the other edge of the soffits sits in a groove on the back of the facia.

Bug defense...

Taping...for membrane

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[Dan0741]

The slate detail looks perfect to me - well recovered. :eusa-clap:

That video was also my bible, the Leicester accent gets a bit much after watching it several times though! :lol:

 

[Jimmy Mack]

The slate detail looks perfect to me - well recovered. :eusa-clap:

That video was also my bible, the Leicester accent gets a bit much after watching it several times though! [emoji38]

Thanks Dan. Ah Leicester....I was wondering...couldn't place it!

I've watched a few of his youtube s...even how to mix cement (that's pretty sad) [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3]

Off topic...One of my favorite channels is 'plumber parts' an amusing and clearly very knowledgeable plumber...as he says ... 'and remember...hold tight'

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[Mike G]

That looks much better Jim.

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Roof lights going in...the instructions (and YouTube video) are hard to fathom, and in parts contradict each other!...just hope I'm doing them right, and set them at the right height!...I've put some additional membrane around too...this is available as an extras kit (possibly?), however I had lots of membrane left over.

Sorry there's not more snaps...I spent a lot of time scratching my head on the details...It's made a huge difference to the space and daylight comfort factor.

Finish my easy verge tomorrow and hopefully tile tile. A (bigger than me) friend came today and got the tiles up ready as well as help drop the glass pivots back into the roof light frames...impossible to line up on your own, unless you're an octopus!

Jim

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[9fingers]

Is there some more flashing to go with those roof lights? I happen to have been watching Youtube videos on a couple of makes and both had more than your photos show.

HTH

Bob

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Is there some more flashing to go with those roof lights? I happen to have been watching Youtube videos on a couple of makes and both had more than your photos show.

HTH

Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes, I've the entire kits to go one, as I tile, then cap details clip around the frames.

The first piece goes on top of the row of tiles under the window, the sides tooth in with the tiles...etc.

Or at least I hope this is right [emoji85] , I think so.

Jim

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[9fingers]

Is there some more flashing to go with those roof lights? I happen to have been watching Youtube videos on a couple of makes and both had more than your photos show.

HTH

Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes, I've the entire kits to go one, as I tile, then cap details clip around the frames.

The first piece goes on top of the row of tiles under the window, the sides tooth in with the tiles...etc.

Or at least I hope this is right [emoji85] , I think so.

Jim

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Yes that sounds like the videos I saw. I was looking at the ones for concrete tiles. there were different kits for Slates but I did not look at those.

Good luck with the tiling

Bob

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Made a start on the tiling today with some help from a pal ...very much two steps forward, one step back as we figured it out...broke a couple of drill bits on the pilots for the half edge tiles ( as recommended by manufacturer ) until we realised it was easier and quicker using a nail punch. Triming the tiles by scoring both sides with a Stanley knife and snapping over a straight edge is a little tricky (tips welcome). I've still to put the easy verge on the other side so will and take some snaps when I do this.

Starter course...

Half tiles...

Progress so far...

Cheers, Jim

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[Malc2098]

Hope mine go that neat. Looking nice.