Mark's Workshop/Garage

[spearos]

Slope your wall plates on the long walls.

EPDM is a simple DIY job.

Love it! :text-bravo:

 

[spearos]

Here is a link to span tables.

Thank you for sharing - bookmarked!

 

[spearos]

With all the help on here I have a plan in my head of the design and basic construction, both being something I feel I am capable of - I now have a level of confidence that a)I know what I want, and b) I have an idea of how I'm going to do it!

So, moving forwards I'm thinking about planning permission :? The Spring Equinox has just passed so to take advantage of the longer, warmer days I need to get my submission in!
I really do not think anyone will have a problem with it - after-all what I want is only just out of PD! Besides, my neighbours are both easy going (and both have what I suspect to be buildings outside PD without consent :eusa-naughty: ), my 'garage' is just to replace an existing, dilapidated garage and the back of my garden faces into a garage block anyway!
I know, I know don't count your chickens and all that, but I'm positive the only issue I might face will be with my paperwork!

As previously mentioned there is a successful planning application for a garage recently built just a few doors away from me that I can 'copy' so I'm hoping I won't need too much help!
I will, though, be further gleaning information from you clever lot about a few jobs that I plan to do whilst I await the decision. More on that soon...

 

[Malc2098]

If not already done so, a chat with the neighbours letting them know that you are applying and they will likely receive correspondence from the LPA will help.

Even a bog standard no objection little thing like ours will take its eight week course. That is the time to do all the homework in the design to identify where any problems might be and how to find solutions to them.

I found that modelling the build in Sketchup led me to most of the design problems and so I could find a way to solving them, The point is to utilise this lead in time both constructively and productively. I also found that the modelling also helped me to estimate quite accurately for materials and therefore the budget.

Hope this helps.

 

[spearos]

Wise words Malcolm :eusa-clap: I do plan to speak to the neighbours, it's the courteous thing to do and of course I want to keep them sweet!

I won't be twiddling my thumbs waiting for a decision that's for sure! I have the existing garage to take down and about 25m²+ of concrete to break up as well as building a temporary shed for all the stuff that's in the garage!
But yes you're right - it's a great time to prepare, to plan and I do intend on using this time wisely. I will be going over and over how I'm going to build this in my head, what will I need? What tools do I need? Materials?

I have seen Sketchup mentioned a lot on this forum, I've even downloaded it however I've not had a lot of time to play with it. It does look like a great tool though, something well worth learning.

 

[spearos]

Today I've been thinking about the drawings for the planning permission, which got me thinking about any overhang of the roof.

I'm thinking a 50-100mm overhang all round? Would that suffice?

Construction seems easy enough; for the sides, joists slightly longer than width of the building with fascia paneling attached to the ends of the joists? And for the front and back, the joists level with the wall and battens bringing the fascia paneling out the required distance?

 

[9fingers]

Should be fine. you need to build out a drip rail edge for the EPDM so the water lands near the centre of the guttering on the low edge and an upstand on the other edges so the water drains away.

Thinking back to when I was looking at EPDM roofing there were a number of youtube videos on fitting EPDM.

Bob
PS I assume you are ok on joist hangers now and my original scheme is no longer needed as your are draining from front to back now>

 

[TrimTheKing]

No relation to your build Mark, and I know it's been said before, but that picture of your little girl in your avatar is an absolute belter! :eusa-clap:

Love that toddler enthusiasm and copying of what you do. Used to love seeing my kids pick up whatever I put down and copy whatever it was I had been doing, just beautiful. bscene-drinkingcheers:

Cheers
Mark

 

[spearos]

Should be fine. you need to build out a drip rail edge for the EPDM so the water lands near the centre of the guttering on the low edge and an upstand on the other edges so the water drains away.

I've been looking at the Permaroof products for the edging/upstand and drip rail. I think their drip rail is particularly neat. It's a 2 part system - a back plate which is fixed into place. The membrane then hangs over this and a drip plate clips onto the back plate, pinching the membrane and holding it in place as well as providing a lip directing water away and into the gutter.

PS I assume you are ok on joist hangers now and my original scheme is no longer needed as your are draining from front to back now>

Perhaps I misunderstood. I was confused as to how the joist hangers would work if I was to construct the fall front to back, joists running side to side (shorter span = smaller timber) and one wall higher than the other for the fall. Here's what I mean:



I assume the joist hangers cannot be fixed other than at 90º to the floor (like the orange joist in my pic) so with the joists and joist hangers at 90º the deck will only be supported by one corner of the stepped joists?

Anyhow, I do like the solution whereby the side wall plates provide the fall however I would still like to understand your suggestion.

 

[9fingers]

In your original scheme the direction of drainage was in the direction of the joists and that is when I proposed hangers. Now you have rejected that, the angled hanger issue arises.

However with a fall of say 1 in 50 (more than enough to drain), the deviation from level across a 50mm joist is just 1mm so a couple of strokes of a plane along each joist will allow the decking to be fully supported.

For completeness I will do a scale drawing of side to side drainage - which I still think is feasible. Do the planners really take the width of the building from gutter to gutter? I don't know how picky they are. My workshop was built under the old PDR rules right on the boundary.
In any case you are going for PP anyway?

Bob

 

[9fingers]

I'm not a quick drawing as Mike :lol:

Section through the garage 4.5 m internal width.



Detail showing joist hanger and gutter that only add190mm to each side at way above head height.



hth

Bob

 

[spearos]

No relation to your build Mark, and I know it's been said before, but that picture of your little girl in your avatar is an absolute belter! :eusa-clap:

Love that toddler enthusiasm and copying of what you do. Used to love seeing my kids pick up whatever I put down and copy whatever it was I had been doing, just beautiful. bscene-drinkingcheers:

Thanks Mark. It is, isn't it? Having a camera with me pretty much all the time (my phone) means I've captured some wonderful moments
Their enthusiasm is commendable, however it can get a little tiresome - having two little pairs of hands in everything I do!

 

[spearos]

Many thanks for the thorough explanation Bob bscene-drinkingcheers: Nice drawings there - what software/platform did you do them on if you don't mind me asking?

Point taken about the deviation from level of the joists.

The reason for the fall front to back is because the garden is only 6.75m wide. So with a 4.5m wide building that leaves 2.25m. For outbuildings between 15m² and 30m² constructed from combustible materials, they need to be at least 1m from boundary to be exempt from building regs. I do not want to get building control involved therefore the 2.25m becomes .25m - not a lot of room for guttering either side.

I'm only putting in a planning application. My take on it is that planning permission is more about size (esp. height with regard to garden structures), intended purpose and where it's being built (conservation area, listed building etc) whereas building regs are all about how it's built - that it poses little risk to people and the immediate environment, and that it is built to a decent standard.
Massive apology if I've just been talking eggs to Grandma!

 

[Mike G]

....Section through the garage 4.5 m internal width........

There's nothing wrong with that detail, Bob, but why add the complication? It appears to me the only gain is the reduced fascia size, but that comes at the expense (in effort terms) of two cuts at each joist end, and the minor expense of joist hangers. The simpler detail is just to sit the joists on top of the plates. Am I missing something?

 

[9fingers]

....Section through the garage 4.5 m internal width........

There's nothing wrong with that detail, Bob, but why add the complication? It appears to me the only gain is the reduced fascia size, but that comes at the expense (in effort terms) of two cuts at each joist end, and the minor expense of joist hangers. The simpler detail is just to sit the joists on top of the plates. Am I missing something?

I'd opt for the hangers to loose the impact of the deep joists. The question originally arose when the OP asked about notching and not weakening the joists and that is when I suggested hangers. The OP then did not follow my description and out of that was born my section drawing.

Bob

 

[spearos]

I've been thinking about the plinth detail and would really appreciate feedback on my design.
For speed and simplicity I'm thinking about having a single course of 150mm wide blocks - yes some find blocks ugly but I quite like their no-nonsense, industrial appearance.

features of this design I like are:

Flush internal face (OSB will sit flush with block face)
Overhang for ventilation (will have some sort of insect/vermin protection - mesh perhaps)
The bottom edge of the bottom feather edge board will sit below the DPM - water is shed lower than any other timber (essentially the bottom board will marginally overlap the blocks).

The bottom FE board will need some sort of spacer to have the same angle as the others, I'm thinking a length of stripwood of appropriate size.

With 40mm battens would an 8mm ventilation gap be sufficient for ventilation? Or would an undesirable increased overall overhang be better, with 50mm battens for a vent gap of 18mm?

 

[Mike G]

I'll have to draw this when I get a moment to satisfy myself, but in principle it should be OK (but ugly!!). However, just watch your block sizes. 140mm is standard, not 150, although 150 is available. Also timber is now 95 x 45.

Your biggest problem is that there is no reference face between the blocks and the timber frame, so you be guessing at dimensions a bit. You also leave a straight way through for draughts by not oversailing the junction with the internal boarding.

Edit:......I've just drawn it. You'll still need to kick the bottom board out with a wedge to get an air gap, but otherwise, it's OK. Like I said........ugly! Badly laid bricks would still look an awful lot better.

18mm OSB? Why? Half that thickness is more than enough. You really will struggle to handle an 18mm board on your own, and you gain nothing for the extra thickness.

 

[jamieD]

Hi Mark, sorry to but in...
I was in a similar predicament with my workshop roof, my workshop is built into the hillside with the garden on top ! I wanted a pitch roof because of I worried about weather water leaks, but my wife didn't want to loose the garden space. So I opted for the flat roof, the roofing guys wanted a fortune to install it, so I got myself on a `Firestone` roofing course. A one day course with a cost of £100 with a certificate to say I can install rubber roofs. Its quite easy to do , I did my own saving a chunk of money and have done a few others as well earning my money back easily. Also once qualified your can buy the materials at a trade price. It might be worth looking into. I did a flat roof for a client who to help with his planning permission we put a flowered wild meadow on top of the firestone roof, the eco friendly angle on planning, it looked great.
Ill post some pictures of my roof over the weekend, I'm new to this forum and promised to put some piccies on of my workshop, I best sweep up!
regards Jamie

 

[jamieD]

I don't mean to upset anyone but I would use 18mm everytime for that situation, stronger and more stable, great for fixing up shelves later on. I use 8 x 4 sheets a lot and don't struggle and ive only skinny Steptoe legs!
Don't forget your damp proof under your blocks as well. And I'm sure you have remembered to stick in a pipe for electric services saves drilling out later. I forgot!
Only a little idea but it might be worth having a small slope on the roof to run rain water into a gutter into a raised waterbut into the workshop into a secondhand sink for washing brushs or toping up the landy!
If your bothered about laying blocks nicely you could soon knock up a timber shuttering to your sizes and spend a little time getting it straight etc, put in some steel mesh, lots of offcuts on sites or ebay or scrapyards(ive done this many times) and then mix concrete yourself and fill in, finally at the end of the day push in some threaded bar with a nut on the bottom into the concrete and when its all set you can drill your bottom timbers to go over the bars and stick on a washer and nut. Conrete could be made with a external slight angle to push of water , concrete or block does absorb water so a good coat of something later is advised.
Thanks Jamie

 

[Rod]

I used 11mm as that was all that was a available at the time. Just made sure I fastened the shelves to the timber uprights.
Laying bricks is not that difficult and saves the bother of shuttering, reinforcement and waterproofing.
You certainly don't need to go on a course to lay EPDM, there's plenty of videos on YouTube and it's pretty easy to install.

Rod

 

[spearos]

However, just watch your block sizes. 140mm is standard, not 150, although 150 is available. Also timber is now 95 x 45.

Yes of course! Not sure why I had 150mm in my head :eusa-doh: But it's evident you understood my design and your approval is more than good enough for me, ugly or not! You really don't like blocks do you? :lol:

Your biggest problem is that there is no reference face between the blocks and the timber frame, so you be guessing at dimensions a bit.

I've thought about this (if I'm right in what I think you mean!) and my solution is to attach offcuts of the internal boarding material to the inside of the bottom of the frame to give me something to line up with the inner block face.

18mm OSB? Why? Half that thickness is more than enough.

Point taken - thank you!




Just one question though - in your opinion, what should the minimum ventilation gap under the bottom FE board be?

 

[spearos]

Hi Mark, sorry to but in...

Hi Jamie! You're not butting in at all - the more the merrier! It's great to hear as many opinions/thoughts/ideas as possible :eusa-dance:

The reason behind me going for blocks is speed and simplicity. Bricks & concrete both have their merits but I just want something that does the job with the minimum amount of fuss.
My workshop is going at the back of an ex council house garden, which backs onto a block of nasty concrete garages (the aesthetics do not concern me too much) and with two young children time and energy are lacking (laying 3+ courses of bricks or constructing shuttering for concrete will take considerable longer), so for me, right now, the more uncomplicated the better!

The fall for the roof has been discussed (there will be one!) and I do plan on harvesting the rain water. You have given me an idea though (the sink)...

You have also got me thinking - what is wrong with the electric supply coming through a drilled hole in the blocks/bricks? To me, on the face of it the 'services pipe' laid in the slab is a lot of faff for what gain?

As Rod has said, fitting an EPDM roof looks straight forward enough and there's plenty of info out there. As with most things I'm sure with the right prep/planning a satisfactory job can be achieved. Famous last words?!... :lol:

 

[Mike G]

.....Just one question though - in your opinion, what should the minimum ventilation gap under the bottom FE board be?

Something in the range 10 to 25mm. Work out the gap to suit your insect mesh detail (and don't have any horizontal battens down there).

 

[spearos]

Something in the range 10 to 25mm. Work out the gap to suit your insect mesh detail (and don't have any horizontal battens down there).

Thanks Mike.

On a side note, have you ever thought about writing a book on how to build a 'shed' properly? I think it would be rather popular!

 

[Mike G]

........On a side note, have you ever thought about writing a book on how to build a 'shed' properly? I think it would be rather popular!

I suspect the risk/ reward ratio wouldn't work out in my favour. Besides, I'm just a little busy at the moment.

 

[jamieD]

Hi Mark,
Just to explain my reasoning and not to look like a throw money away course geek. The course was only one day for £100 which I received £40 in tools for installing the stuff, plus I obtained a huge discount on the materials needed beating any internet prices I could get,and taught by a full time professional, But most importantly it transferred my grumpy anti have a go yourself building inspector into a co operative helpful (almost smiled at one point) guy, which was to me worth every penny. Hopefully you will not need the planning permission. Ive done three large property renovations and my main advice would be to always go that bit better in materials rather than thinking that it will just do, in ten years you don't want to be redoing work you didn't have to, most annoying when you know the work you did was good but materials let you down, Although I understand budgets are easy to run over.
I can see your getting some fantastic advice from the forum which is priceless!

 

[9fingers]

Many thanks for the thorough explanation Bob bscene-drinkingcheers: Nice drawings there - what software/platform did you do them on if you don't mind me asking?

Mark, Apologies for not responding to your question earlier.
The drawing package I use is Visio2000 Technical running under Win XP SP3. For the purpose of posting to the forum, I use JASC Paintshop Pro 8 to selectively grab part of the screen to JPG. Something that I believe newer versions of windaz offer. This has the advantage of capturing the drawing grid compared to a "save as JPG" that produces a plain white background.
Visio is only 2D and quite old. I like more because I've been using for years since Claris Draw disappeared.
I think it might be integrated with MS office these days
Most of my software is last century and works as well as it did when I first got it!

hth
Bob

 

[spearos]

I can see your getting some fantastic advice from the forum which is priceless!

Indeed. This forum is priceless. To be honest, if it wasn't for all the help and generosity of the members I don't think I'd even contemplate this project.

 

[spearos]

[/quote]

Mark, Apologies for not responding to your question earlier.
The drawing package I use is Visio2000 Technical running under Win XP SP3. For the purpose of posting to the forum, I use JASC Paintshop Pro 8 to selectively grab part of the screen to JPG. Something that I believe newer versions of windaz offer. This has the advantage of capturing the drawing grid compared to a "save as JPG" that produces a plain white background.
Visio is only 2D and quite old. I like more because I've been using for years since Claris Draw disappeared.
I think it might be integrated with MS office these days
Most of my software is last century and works as well as it did when I first got it!

hth
Bob[/quote]

No worries Bob - thanks for the info, appreciated. Something to take a look into when I get some free time

 

[spearos]

My latest thoughts are what to clad my workshop in. Feather edge boards immediately spring to mind, however what are people's thoughts on using these? Are alternatives, such as shiplap worth consideration?

It appears feather edge boards come in a plethora of different sizes - obviously the meatier the size, the higher the price so with that in mind anyone like to suggest a size that would suffice?

Also, the framework, I'm thinking C16 regularised (regularised to aid accuracy) is the increased cost money well spent? Mike G mentions the new size for '4x2' as being 95x45 - what's that all about?

Lots of questions I know! I've really got a lot to learn and consider so any guidance would be very much appreciated :eusa-think: :eusa-think:

 

[Mike G]

The old 4x2 regularised has almost gone with the dodo, in my experience. These days, most merchants stock CLS timber, which is machined to higher levels and has the corners rounded (ie arrises removed). It is ex-100x50, and actually measures 95x45. The threat of splinters is much reduced. It is dimensionally much more accurate than regularised timber ever was. I am pretty sure that it is only available "treated", but just check with your merchant nonetheless.

Feather edge board is much cheaper than shiplap. Shiplap provides a flatter finished appearance, but is thinner and less robust than feather edge. I always use ex 175x32 feather-edge..........or at least, I thought I did. It turns out it measures 180/ 185 in width. I am boarding my shed at the moment, and measured a piece yesterday. The thinner stuff (ex 25mm) curls and splits too readily in my view.

 

[Deejay]

Here is a link to span tables. These show the max span for a given timber and weight.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...poKTGRQj10Db_RkAg&sig2=3ovgLVPR9-BsdjW4-vdzKA

Morning Tim

Thanks for the link. I'll add it to the file.

Cheers

Dave

 

[spearos]

The old 4x2 regularised has almost gone with the dodo, in my experience. These days, most merchants stock CLS timber, which is machined to higher levels and has the corners rounded (ie arrises removed). It is ex-100x50, and actually measures 95x45. The threat of splinters is much reduced. It is dimensionally much more accurate than regularised timber ever was. I am pretty sure that it is only available "treated", but just check with your merchant nonetheless.

Feather edge board is much cheaper than shiplap. Shiplap provides a flatter finished appearance, but is thinner and less robust than feather edge. I always use ex 175x32 feather-edge..........or at least, I thought I did. It turns out it measures 180/ 185 in width. I am boarding my shed at the moment, and measured a piece yesterday. The thinner stuff (ex 25mm) curls and splits too readily in my view.

Brilliantly summed up Mike - a million thanks for the concise reply bscene-drinkingcheers:
With this info it feels like yet another stepping stone passed :eusa-dance:

 

[spearos]

Good evening everyone!

Are there any kind souls out there with experience of planning permission?! I've been going over and over this in my head and sifting through all the information the wonderful wide web offers, eager to make a start on the drawings. However I have a bit of a dilemma...

My original idea was to find a suitable used hardwood, double glazed window - it seems pointless to shell out on a new window when I can get something that will do the job for a fraction of the cost of new.
Problem is despite looking, I've been unable to find one local so I haven't got a window size for the drawings.
From my research it is a requirement to state the window and door dimensions, besides it would appear that the general consensus is to put as much detail into the drawings (dimensions, materials, features) as possible to avoid any holdups in the application.

So, do I;
a) Bite the bullet and splash the cash for a new item?
b) settle for a uvpc window (to me, they just don't look right on a timber building), it would be easy to find one as there's loads about!
b) Use an approximate size for the drawing and fit whatever I can find, when I find something?
c) Someone have a better idea?

What would be the consequences for not strictly adhering to the drawing(s)? I guess having to submit a new application, and risk it being rejected?.. If anything come of it...
Now this might sound like a dumb question but, is there any leeway? For example if I had a window in my drawing 1000mm high but actually fitted one 1200mm high? Or, if you had the building's width as 3000mm but it was actually 3030mm?

 

[spearos]

I've been sifting through all the information the wonderful wide web offers

I did find this link - might be of use to anyone submitting their own planning application? There's a lot of info and clear requirements for the drawings:

http://www.hastings.gov.uk/planning/advice/guidance/

 

[Malc2098]

I have to say that I didn't go into much further than outer dimensions for mine.

The first time the triage office sent it back for: -

01. The floor plan and elevations submitted are not to a recognisable metric scale. Please re-submit at either 1:50, 1:100 or 1:200 scale.

02. Please submit separate drawings for each of the four elevations as we are unable to accept '3D' plans. Please also ensure that any doors and windows are shown.

03. The shape of the workshop on the Site Location and Block Plans does not match the floor plan. They should include the roofed decking area.

I had sent the Front, End Elevations and Plan on one sheet. I had a bit of a problem getting a recognisable scale interpreted from a 2D Sketchup drawing, but I got there in the end.

And after a phone call to explain that this was a garden workshop, not anything residential, it was accepted, as was.

 

[spearos]

I have to say that I didn't go into much further than outer dimensions for mine.

The first time the triage office sent it back for: -

01. The floor plan and elevations submitted are not to a recognisable metric scale. Please re-submit at either 1:50, 1:100 or 1:200 scale.

02. Please submit separate drawings for each of the four elevations as we are unable to accept '3D' plans. Please also ensure that any doors and windows are shown.

03. The shape of the workshop on the Site Location and Block Plans does not match the floor plan. They should include the roofed decking area.

I had sent the Front, End Elevations and Plan on one sheet. I had a bit of a problem getting a recognisable scale interpreted from a 2D Sketchup drawing, but I got there in the end.

And after a phone call to explain that this was a garden workshop, not anything residential, it was accepted, as was.

Thanks Malcolm bscene-drinkingbuddies:

It does seem that a lot of it is down to the individual, the character of the planning officer and what kind of day they're having!

So, would it be fair to say that it was an easy, quick enough process to make amendments?

As mentioned at the beginning of my thread, I have viewed a recent application for a garage a few doors away and the drawings for that are basically just the major dimensions of the building and just the width of the door (garage only has one door and no windows).
This gave me the impression that the planning department are not that particular about details for an outbuilding (garage/shed/workshop), that impression is reinforced by your information reference your phonecall to the planning department.
Perhaps if I made it very clear in my 'design and access statement' that this is an outbuilding, basically just a garage, they will not pull out the fine tooth comb!!

 

[Malc2098]

Yep. They said above, please make sure any doors and windows are shown, but they didn't ask for dimensions of them.

I only ever had to go for PP because noone could give me a definitive answer for a datum level because the site slopes two ways. So they said apply for PP. So I did, and took advantage to add a bit of height that you wouldn't get within 2m from the boundary with Permitted Development!

Once the triage mob said it was OK, I just had to wait the 8 weeks.

 

[Deejay]

Morning Mark

Have you tried the local glazing companies for 'mismeasured' frames?

Apparently it happens regularly, if not often, leaving them with unwanted stock. Rather than pay for a skip, they sell them off to get something back towards their costs.

Thanks for the link. I'll add it to the buyers guide file.

Cheers

Dave

 

[TrimTheKing]

Mark

My recent experience of similar for my workshop is that I specified the window opening sizes on the plans that were passed then decided I was going to replace all the windows and doors in my house and that I could recycle some of the better condition windows for use in the workshop.

These are a slightly different size than the plans, and at the same time I decided I wanted to add a velux into the roof which wasn't on the plans. I called up the planning officer and explained the situation, she had a look at the plans and agreed that the window size change was negligible and positioning the same, and the velux overlooked the highway but no neighbours, and because it's in a vaulted ceiling I couldn't see out of it anyway, so she just asked me to fill in a 'non material change' request which was a formality to ensure that the changes were added into my PP file for completeness, but to go ahead with the changes.

HTH

Cheers
Mark