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Old Oak
It is quite a chunky chamfer, but I’d vote for a chamfer with character instead of a round over, so happy to hear you’re going to give the chamfer a try.
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Round oak table (a la GE Street in the V&A) Finished.
- Thread starter Mike G
- Start date
Pete Maddex
Old Oak
Personally I can’t see the point of the feet shaped like that, just looks odd to me.
Rounded edges, arrises, are always my preference as it protects the edge from splintering when knocked.
Finish colour is also a personal thing. I have found a medium oak stain makes the grain details pop.
Giving it a good dose of looking at, as is, for a few days may help the decision process on all fronts.
Rounded edges, arrises, are always my preference as it protects the edge from splintering when knocked.
Finish colour is also a personal thing. I have found a medium oak stain makes the grain details pop.
Giving it a good dose of looking at, as is, for a few days may help the decision process on all fronts.
Mike G
Petrified Pine
I've always wanted to try that, Pete, but never have. Have you done it?
Mike G
Petrified Pine
That isn't going to happen! I've got lots of other things to make.
Mike G
Petrified Pine
Here's the original, again:
My current thinking is a round-over on the top edge, and a shallow-angle chamfer on the under edge to reduce the chunky feel of the top.........but that may change by the time I make it out to the workshop. It's going to be hard to avoid sandpaper for all the arrises around the undercarriage.
Just as an aside; it's noted by the V&A as oval in shape. I wonder if this is just as a result of a circular top shrinking.
My current thinking is a round-over on the top edge, and a shallow-angle chamfer on the under edge to reduce the chunky feel of the top.........but that may change by the time I make it out to the workshop. It's going to be hard to avoid sandpaper for all the arrises around the undercarriage.
Just as an aside; it's noted by the V&A as oval in shape. I wonder if this is just as a result of a circular top shrinking.
Pete Maddex
Old Oak
I have done some test pieces many years ago and it works well, you could use it as a starting point and stain it afterwards, it makes the medullary rays stand out.
You need the good ammonia, I got mine years ago when I had an office next to the chemical lab.
Pete
Pete Maddex
Old Oak
I knock off the arrices with a block plane or a cabinet scraper.
Pete
Pete
Oh, I reckon any forum members visiting in future will be down on the floor with torches and high definition cameras now you've pointed that out!
Mike G
Petrified Pine
I started by cleaning up the table top, and chamfering the top and bottom edges:
Except for the area around the little infill:
Finishing with a scraper plane:
I worked my way though all of the pieces doing faces and chamfers, but the legs needed a lot more than that as they were left from-the-drawknife. I used all of the weaponry:
I re-created one of the pictures from day one, not only to show how much has changed, but to also see how much has ended up on my firewood pile (The legs and stretchers are the wrong way around):
I made some 9.5mm pegs:
Then I did a final dry assembly, just to check everything, and make a decision on whether or not to glue the table together, or just peg it, and have all the joints "dry". My wife called my idea of leaving the table permanently un-glued a conceit.........and of course she was right. Here it is dry:
That scruffy peg-end invoked my only use of sandpaper on the job: I cleaned up the ends of the pegs on a scrap. If I had had access to sharkshin, I would of course have used that instead
.
Before gluing, I made the little insert for the end of the sliding dovetail:
There are seldom pictures of gluing. Not only are they extremely dull photos, but there doesn't tend to be time to faff about with a camera. So, you'll have to take my word for it that I glued everything. Here's my total squeeze-out:
I've spent too many fruitless hours trying to remove glue from bare timber after a glue-up, so I now use an artists paintbrush, and keep glue away from the edges. The only clamps needed were for the little infill block:
This is what my finishing bench looks like at the moment:
So, I did my van Dyck's crystal test pieces on my horses:
Except for the area around the little infill:
Finishing with a scraper plane:
I worked my way though all of the pieces doing faces and chamfers, but the legs needed a lot more than that as they were left from-the-drawknife. I used all of the weaponry:
I re-created one of the pictures from day one, not only to show how much has changed, but to also see how much has ended up on my firewood pile (The legs and stretchers are the wrong way around):
I made some 9.5mm pegs:
Then I did a final dry assembly, just to check everything, and make a decision on whether or not to glue the table together, or just peg it, and have all the joints "dry". My wife called my idea of leaving the table permanently un-glued a conceit.........and of course she was right. Here it is dry:
That scruffy peg-end invoked my only use of sandpaper on the job: I cleaned up the ends of the pegs on a scrap. If I had had access to sharkshin, I would of course have used that instead
.Before gluing, I made the little insert for the end of the sliding dovetail:
There are seldom pictures of gluing. Not only are they extremely dull photos, but there doesn't tend to be time to faff about with a camera. So, you'll have to take my word for it that I glued everything. Here's my total squeeze-out:
I've spent too many fruitless hours trying to remove glue from bare timber after a glue-up, so I now use an artists paintbrush, and keep glue away from the edges. The only clamps needed were for the little infill block:
This is what my finishing bench looks like at the moment:
So, I did my van Dyck's crystal test pieces on my horses:
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I was too slow to comment on them earlier, but I'm glad you've flattened off the tips of the legs. And the top needs those chamfers. Personally, I would like to see it with the chamfer on the underside going back further, ie to a smaller circle than it does, but I can see that having scaled the table down, there's not much room to spare for that.
I do think a dark brown stain will make it all hang together much better than it does in the raw. You could see it as a one-man fight back against the often reported news that nobody likes old brown furniture any more!
I do think a dark brown stain will make it all hang together much better than it does in the raw. You could see it as a one-man fight back against the often reported news that nobody likes old brown furniture any more!
Mike G
Petrified Pine
You're preaching to the converted Andy.
I love dark oak, but this table was very much my wife's choice, and she wants it as dark as possible. Wait until you see my up-coming dining table build. It's going to be acres of dark oak.There's still a remnant "pillow" to the tip of the feet, in a nod towards the original design. That detail may or may not survive a good look at the finished table in situ. I've never liked it. And the underside chamfer may well get adjusted tomorrow. I thought I would replicate the original, and then make up my mind. I thought I would hate the pair of chamfers, but they're probably OK (particularly as I wasn't too particular about accuracy)........but I'd feel better doing as you suggest.
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Mike G
Petrified Pine
Today started with de-clamping, then cleaning up the Dutchman:
As I've said, I've never liked the feet. I band-sawed a bit of scrap into a mock foot, to see if this idea would work:
Not for me. So, I just cut the "pillows" off in their entirety:
I then slapped on a bit of stain (van Dyck's crystals):
If anyone has any good ideas about knocking back the raised grain without using sandpaper after all this water has been applied .......well, I'm all ears.
As I've said, I've never liked the feet. I band-sawed a bit of scrap into a mock foot, to see if this idea would work:
Not for me. So, I just cut the "pillows" off in their entirety:
I then slapped on a bit of stain (van Dyck's crystals):
If anyone has any good ideas about knocking back the raised grain without using sandpaper after all this water has been applied .......well, I'm all ears.
Attachments
Feet look much better. For knocking back the stain, 0000 wire wool, be careful on oak! Or Scotchbrite pad.
duke
Old Oak
Crumpled packaging paper ? The brown or off white stuff.
NickM
Old Oak
Mike, out of interest, what is your aversion to sandpaper? Do you consider it to be "cheating" or untraditional in some way, or do you just not like the dust? I've spoken to a few people who think that craftsman of old would have loved to have access to modern sandpaper and that they didn't use it in the past simply because it wasn't very good!
As to your options, could you give it a VERY light scraping - i.e. almost no pressure so you only remove the raised grain and not any wood/stain?
As to your options, could you give it a VERY light scraping - i.e. almost no pressure so you only remove the raised grain and not any wood/stain?
I think it's looking better already. Nearly there!
PS, in the absence of sharkskin (as mentioned earlier) have you considered trying horsetails? The plant, that is, not the animal part. I know they were used for scouring pots and pans. Possibly a problem with the green bits and the sap though...
PS, in the absence of sharkskin (as mentioned earlier) have you considered trying horsetails? The plant, that is, not the animal part. I know they were used for scouring pots and pans. Possibly a problem with the green bits and the sap though...
Mike G
Petrified Pine
I barely use sandpaper at all, Nick, normally, other than for finishing. Essentially just for rubbing down between coats. However, I am particularly curious this time as I am trying to build this table within the limitations of the guys who built the original 170 years ago. It's an entirely artifical constraint I am imposing on myself, and it of course prevents me from using the pan-scourer plastic stuff (Scotchbrite etc) as an alternative. My get-out-of-gaol card is that glass paper was in production from 1833, apparently, so may have been available to the joiners in Oxford who made this table in 1854-ish.
duke
Old Oak
As I've said before Mike, that is one very nice hand tool cabinet.
Cabinetman
Sequoia
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Sorry I’ve been away and missed all your build Mike, most impressed, I seem to remember that they used the sharp edge of a piece of broken glass to knock back the grain. Pretty much as a scraper I suppose.
Sure you all know this but fuming Oak came about when it was noticed that the beams in the (French) stables were a lovely shade of brown, not sure how they worked out that it was the Ammonia in the horse urine that was causing it though.
We had an unused fuming cabinet in the woodwork room at School when I was a boy but that’s the closest I’ve come to it so not much help there!
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I was intrigued by Mike's comments about sand/glasspaper and its availability, so thought I'd dig a little deeper.
I found this Wikipedia entry which gives the 1833 date for John Oakey. Following the link to his biography, it becomes clear that 1833 was the date that he introduced better, mechanised methods of making sand/glass paper, compared to the established practice of making it by hand.
Grace's Guide has this 1839 advert for it:
The Wikipedia entry also has this intriguing reference to a much earlier date:
The source is given as a 1971 reprint of that early book, but we needn't go and look for a copy, as it has since been digitised and is available here:
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009355344/page/n53/mode/1up
That link should land on page 36. I've searched and skimmed the whole text, looking for any comparison between glass and sandpaper but could not find any, even after realising that I needed to search for glafs.
I linked to page 36 because it does include this instruction, suggesting that suitable paper was not an option, and the tricky job of smoothing wood needed to be outsourced. After filling in roughnesses with a mix of fine sawdust and glue, the maker of a wooden item he was planning to decorate was advised to:
which gives Mike a useful option if he wants it and shows that the humble scraper is quite old. But that's not quite the only way ahead for Mike. I thought I was being cheeky suggesting horsetails as a pan-scourer, but the Wiki article says that they were used, in Japan. The way to avoid covering your new table top with green smears is to boil and then dry the plants first.
I found another reference to using horsetails as a fine finishing abrasive in Roubo's book on furniture making from 1765, but that left out the boiling and drying step.
It all goes to show that if you want historical accuracy in your woodworking, don't rely on old books, and if you do, look in more than one place.
I found this Wikipedia entry which gives the 1833 date for John Oakey. Following the link to his biography, it becomes clear that 1833 was the date that he introduced better, mechanised methods of making sand/glass paper, compared to the established practice of making it by hand.
Grace's Guide has this 1839 advert for it:
The Wikipedia entry also has this intriguing reference to a much earlier date:
Cheap sandpaper was often passed off as glass paper; Stalker and Parker cautioned against it in A Treatise of Japanning and Varnishing published in 1688
The source is given as a 1971 reprint of that early book, but we needn't go and look for a copy, as it has since been digitised and is available here:
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009355344/page/n53/mode/1up
That link should land on page 36. I've searched and skimmed the whole text, looking for any comparison between glass and sandpaper but could not find any, even after realising that I needed to search for glafs.
I linked to page 36 because it does include this instruction, suggesting that suitable paper was not an option, and the tricky job of smoothing wood needed to be outsourced. After filling in roughnesses with a mix of fine sawdust and glue, the maker of a wooden item he was planning to decorate was advised to:
send it to a good workman or Cabinet-maker, who muft fcrape it with his Scraper.
which gives Mike a useful option if he wants it and shows that the humble scraper is quite old. But that's not quite the only way ahead for Mike. I thought I was being cheeky suggesting horsetails as a pan-scourer, but the Wiki article says that they were used, in Japan. The way to avoid covering your new table top with green smears is to boil and then dry the plants first.
I found another reference to using horsetails as a fine finishing abrasive in Roubo's book on furniture making from 1765, but that left out the boiling and drying step.
It all goes to show that if you want historical accuracy in your woodworking, don't rely on old books, and if you do, look in more than one place.
AJB Temple
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As a weird aside, I do have a few sheets of old glasspaper. They are in my paternal grandfather's tool chest (really just a big box) with all of his tool and the glasspaper in a paper bag. I think I remember him telling me when I was about 5, that it was made of crushed glass. But this might have been reinforced by stories from my dad. I was later told by my dad that you could get a cloth backed version of coarse glass paper (there is a sheet in the box) that could also be used for polishing horse's coats for military or show purposes.
Mike G
Petrified Pine
I applied multiple coats of my 1:1:1 oil, varnish, white-spirit mix.......1 to the underside of the top, 2 to the inside of the legs and to the cross members, 3 to the outside of the legs, and 5 to the top, allowing 24 hours or more between coats:
My wife is delighted with it, and would like another like it for the hall.
My wife is delighted with it, and would like another like it for the hall.
Phil
Old Oak
Excellent! 
Very good WIP and the pics, final finish looks great.
I have fumed small bits of oak and beech for candle holders.
You can control the shade by time and amount of ammonia. Used an old plastic toolbox, let it stand in sun.
It draws in deep enough into the wood so can take further cutting or sanding.
Very good WIP and the pics, final finish looks great.
I have fumed small bits of oak and beech for candle holders.
You can control the shade by time and amount of ammonia. Used an old plastic toolbox, let it stand in sun.
It draws in deep enough into the wood so can take further cutting or sanding.
Cabinetman
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That’s turned out just lovely Mike, particularly like the grain on the top, but of course you should have known to make two of everything when you started, women!
Cabinetman
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That’s interesting I didn’t realise there was a heat element to the process, suppose it makes the Ammonia fume more.Excellent!
Very good WIP and the pics, final finish looks great.
I have fumed small bits of oak and beech for candle holders.
You can control the shade by time and amount of ammonia. Used an old plastic toolbox, let it stand in sun.
It draws in deep enough into the wood so can take further cutting or sanding.
Phil
Old Oak
It does not need the heat, but I found it works a lot faster.
AJB Temple
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Nice job.