wizer's Workshop

[9fingers]

Makes sense, thanks Bob

Good!
Basically your doorway aperture goes up the the roof joists and the gap is filled with the door and a filler panel above.

Bob

 

[wizer]

Right, not got anywhere with my drawings this week.

Need to start thinking about brick laying :? Any tips? Got the bricks already. Need to pick up some basic tools. I'm guessing I start at the corners and work in, eventually ending up with a half brick somewhere.

 

[Mike G]

First thing to leap out at me is the lack of a double header over the double doorway?........
Bob

It's not critical, Bob, although it would help dampen down vibrations from a big door closing sharply. The roof joist spans, so the only load on the door head is the little panel's self-weight. Certainly I would be doubling up, but it doesn't necessarily need a lintel.

 

[Mike G]

Right, not got anywhere with my drawings this week.

Need to start thinking about brick laying :? Any tips? Got the bricks already. Need to pick up some basic tools. I'm guessing I start at the corners and work in, eventually ending up with a half brick somewhere.

Before you start you "gauge" the bricks, laying them out dry along the edges to see how the bond works. You can do that in Sketchup, of course. Ending up with a half in a run of stretcher-bond brickwork is the one thing you want to avoid. It will completely break the bond.

 

[9fingers]

With walls this long, you should be able to win or lose half a brick simply by fiddling with the joint width.
A stretcher and 10mm mortar joint should work out at 225mm but check with your bricks.

e.g. 50 stretchers and 49 x 10mm joints will be 11.24m
Add 1 mm to each joint and it will be 11.289 m
lose 1 mm on each joint and it will be 11.191m which is 98 mm difference almost half a brick

You can start one corner with a stretcher and the next corner along with a header which gives half brick difference on the length corner to corner

Bob

 

[AndyP]

I can only imagine how easy it is to adjust the mortar width by a consistent 1mm over a 11 metres.
Good luck Tom.

 

[Rod]

If you are really obsessive you could mark it out on a rod - there’s a plastic gizmo you can buy for setting out the verticals but again a marked up piece of wood would do.
To be honest it’s only a shed and nobody would notice except yourself. [emoji3]

Rod

 

[wizer]

Struck the forms today. It didn't crumble, so there's that.

Laid out the first course of bricks. Looks like it shouldn't be too much mucking about.

Presumably I should trim the excess DPM to below FGL?

I want hard standing to wrap around the workshop for al fresco working. Not decided wether to pour another slab or lay pavers yet. :eusa-think:


Thoughts have now turned back to the drawings, I keep putting them down and am getting no where.

Not sure what to do with the ends? The roof shouldn't finish flush, how should I build that out so the roof over hangs a bit?

 

[wizer]

Is it this?

 

[Malc2098]

Looks OK to me.

Looks like you're getting the hang of Sketchup!

 

[9fingers]

Is it this?

Neither!
That end rafter will just fall off over time!
Get rid of the double rafter and set a single one back from the end wall by about 200 mm or so. Increase the length of your ladders to about 400mm and the width to the same as the rafters so they straddle the end wall, then add a fascia board say 25mm on the end of the ladders to make your over hang of about 200mm or what ever you want there.
Bob

 

[9fingers]

Struck the forms today. It didn't crumble, so there's that.

Laid out the first course of bricks. Looks like it shouldn't be too much mucking about.

Watch out for your brick bond along the back where you have a half brick. You run the risk of an irish bond (joints in line!) on the next course.
Rather than a whole brick and a half brick next to it, use 2x 3/4 bricks.

Bob

 

[TrimTheKing]

I wouldn't even do that. Why not remove the overhanging brick from the front, and place a full bring along the long side. That would bring the long side into correct bond and then just either modify the width of the door to fit to the brick spacing or slightly widen the width of the perps to make it fit...

Cheers
Mark

 

[wizer]

Bonjour

I am trying to work out how I start the plinth. On Mike's drawing he's specified galv strap 'screwed & plugged to the slab under the plinth'. So am I just using these?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/fischer-nylo ... pack/28374

What spacing on the galv strap along the walls? Every 600mm?


Back to brick laying. Can anyone suggest a mix I should use? We have a mini-mixer, so I'll be using that.

How exactly do I start. I get the general gist of brick laying. But do I set a brick at each corner and let them set before I carry on? This would give me something to set my strings on?

Confused of Crowborough :?

 

[Malc2098]

W

As a DIYer and not having laid a brick for 40 years, and then not very well, I looked online for videos and advice. there are many and this is just one of them.

https://www.homebase.co.uk/ideas-advice/diy/walls/how-to-lay-a-brick-wall

I found the making and mixing of mortar a bit of a dark art and I'm sure there are many here to give advice on that.

Good luck.

 

[Mike G]

That screw & plug is fine, although most people just have a box of red and/ or brown plugs, and use their own screws. The straps should be at max 2m centres, and either side of the door . Screw the straps down flat onto the concrete, lay your bricks up over them, then when you need them fold the strap up.

Laying bricks is all about the mortar. If you can get some nice mortar, which allows you to set the brick in exactly the right place with the chance of some later adjustment, then you're doing OK. Don't forget your plasticiser! The corners are built using only a spirit level and a tape measure. Once they have gone off for an hour or two they are then strong enough to string a line between, and that usually shows up how inaccurately you built the corners!

Here's a corner being built:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1NALOkrxsQ

 

[wizer]

Makes sense, thanks.

So am I buying a mortar mix or mixing it myself?

*EDIT* Actually scrub that, I have a ton of sand left over fromt the slab, so I'll be mixing my own.

What are the ratios?

 

[wizer]

Here's a corner being built:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1NALOkrxsQ

Doesn't matter how many of those videos I watch, I'm sure it's not that simple!!!

 

[Rod]

I went on an evening class bricklaying course, which sadly only lasted one evening due to lack of numbers but learned enough to do a reasonable job.
Lots of ways of “cheating” using marked up rods and even a length of timber cut to the bed thickness to help get your eye in.

Rod

 

[9fingers]

You can also practice using a mortar with no cement. Just sand, water and a bit of plasticiser.
It will behave almost the same are real mortar but you can take it down, brush off the bricks and set them aside to dry off. Remember that that sand already has plasticiser in it when you make real mortar with it.

Bob

 

[Deejay]

Here's a corner being built:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1NALOkrxsQ

Doesn't matter how many of those videos I watch, I'm sure it's not that simple!!!

Afternoon Tom

I haven't done that much brickwork but, In my limited experience, Mike is right about the consistency of the mortar. If you get that right you're half way there.

Too dry and you can't bed in the bricks. Too wet and it won't support the brick as it sets and you risk getting it all over the face. If you mix it so that light pressure from the hand onto a carefully laid consistent bed of mortar will get the brick almost right you can then tap it down to the line /level.

If it's too dry, chuck it back in the mixer and add water till it's right.

Get yourself a bit of scrap plywood to use as a spot board for the mix.

Start round the back and you'll be doing it right first time by the time you get to the front.

It's a skilled job, but you only need to lay a few hundred bricks over three courses. Take your time and you can do it.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Mike G]

Just to add to what Deejay has just said, the wetness of the bricks is also a key factor. If they are bone dry they'll "suck" any life out of the mortar immediately, and it won't matter how perfect you've got your mortar. However, too wet and you'll make a horrible mess, getting mortar all over the face. I have a watering can with me when laying bricks, and will damp down the stack of un-laid bricks now and then to adjust their wetness. It's a bloomin' fiddle, especially with soft-reds, which are very porous.

 

[Tusses]

I've only ever laid a few bricks , but I have a bucket of water with me. the next brick to be laid is in the bucket whilst I lay this one , then I take it out to lay , and put another in . I don't know if this is a good way or not ? .. I just knew dry brick suck the moisture out of the mortar.

 

[Mike G]

That would be too wet, Tusses. The face of the brick will be smeared in mortar just from striking off the excess. They need to be damp, but not have any surface water on them.

 

[Tusses]

ok , thanks Mike

 

[wizer]

Hi all

Happy New Year. I suppose I better start getting things moving on this again.

Been offered a load of insulation boards and I'm wondering if it's a good deal.

All I know is it's

Inno-Bond
'Tissue Faced'
100mm x 600mm x 1200mm

Paying about £7.50 per board.

All I can find is that it's intended for roofs. Would this work in the walls of my workshop? It seems to be a very good price on an expensive aspect of the build.

 

[Malc2098]

I've used paper line boards on my build under the floor and in the roof, from the seconds people.

That price would work out at £30 for 1200x2400

I got mine from the seconds place, they were 120mm thick and worked out at less than £20 for a 1200x2400 equivalent.

 

[wizer]

Thanks Malc

I'll look at 2nds

But is this stuff ok in the walls?

 

[wizer]

Looking at this.

I've been offered 140 boards for £1000, so actually more like £7.15 per board - £28.60 per full board.

https://www.secondsandco.co.uk/product- ... foil-board
£35.27

Plus delivery, would work out quite a bit more. They are in York, so not exactly local.

 

[Malc2098]

That's a lot of area, Wizer. If you're build will take it, then it seems not a bad deal. Disposing of waste offcuts and boards can cost, though.

I went to their pallets of boards page.

https://www.secondsandco.co.uk/shop-c15sh

They change weekly, so I kept watching until one came up that suited me; size, price etc.

We have to remember that they are seconds and so may not be uniform thickness, and that if they are uniform and 100mm, then they are too thick for putting in standard 95x45 treated timber for the frames.

Mine was 120 mm, so I couldn't use it in the walls, the floor was great, but the roof needed a little adjustment to accommodate them for their ventilation.

 

[wizer]

We have to remember that they are seconds and so may not be uniform thickness, and that if they are uniform and 100mm, then they are too thick for putting in standard 95x45 treated timber for the frames.

Yes that's a sticking point. But I can probably pack out the frame by 5mm (using off cuts of a foam board we use at work) and still be saving money.

 

[Malc2098]

That's what I did with my roof rafters. They were 145 and I wanted about a 50mm ventilation space, so I screwed 50x25 roofing battens on top of the rafters to create the gap - the boards were 120mm, the rafters 145 + 25 =170mm, so I got a 50mm gap.

 

[RogerS]

I got my Kingspan from Seconds and Co. This is about 1/4 of what I boght for £1625. Thought I had another photo of the stacked pallets on the truck.



It's well worth giving them a call as their stock changes daily and, as Malc says, the thicknesses do vary. But you could get some 90mm perhaps. They'll tell you the delivery charge as well. Might not be as bad as you think although I do appreciate that relative to God's Own, you are in the tropics.

Not sure how pricing is fairing given the fire in the German Celotex factory which put a severe dent in available supplies. I'm thinking I might use mineral wool batts as Mike G suggested.

 

[wizer]

Thanks Roger. Very envious of your polytunnel A combination of planning restrictions and idiotic neighbours put an end to my hope of having one

I keep needing to remind myself of the power of forums (dying as they are). Been trying to work this out in my own head and there's not enough wattage in there to figure it all out on my own :shock:

Ultimately cost is the deciding factor here (isn't it always). The final insulation value is less important (beggers can't be choosers).

So I'm now urgently trying to work out what's best in terms of cost, as I only have until Sat to get these rigid boards. We are replacing the flat roof on our house, these boards still might be usefull, if not for the workshop.

Will call Seconds&Co this morning. Am also now looking at mineral wall. Is this generally a cheaper option than PIR? Is there a massive difference in insulation rating?

 

[Rod]

I used 100mm Rockwall on my rebuild.

Rod

 

[wizer]

Could someone please check my maths :eusa-shifty:

The walls are:
7.5m x 1.8m = 13.5m2 x 2 = 27m2
4m x 1.8m = 7.2m2 x 2 = 14.4m2
7.5m x 300mm = 2.25m2
Total = 43.65m2

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/ ... -pack.html

4.32m2 = £30.17
43.65m2 / 4.32m2 = 10.10 x £30.17 = £304.72

Roof is:
7.6m x 4.7m = 35.7m2

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/ ... x-43m.html

4.9m2 = £62.81
35.7m2 / 4.9m2 = £7.3 x £458.52

Total Cost £763.27

I have rounded up and not subtracted the door and window cut outs, so this should be the top end, if I have worked it out correctly. Have I?

 

[AndyP]

Could someone please check my maths :eusa-shifty:

The walls are:
7.5m x 1.8m = 13.5m2 x 2 = 27m2
4m x 1.8m = 7.2m2 x 2 = 14.4m2
7.5m x 300mm = 2.25m2
Total = 43.65m2

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/ ... -pack.html

4.32m2 = £30.17
43.65m2 / 4.32m2 = 10.10 x £30.17 = £304.72

Roof is:
7.6m x 4.7m = 35.7m2

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/ ... x-43m.html

4.9m2 = £62.81
35.7m2 / 4.9m2 = £7.3 x £458.52 should be 7.3 x 62.81 = 458.52

Total Cost £763.27

I have rounded up and not subtracted the door and window cut outs, so this should be the top end, if I have worked it out correctly. Have I?

Tom, Why do you have 5 walls? Maths is correct except for the bit in red above. You can't order fractions of a batt so are you going to order 7 batts of the first one and 10 of the second and hope that the cuts outs will make up the difference.

NB I failed O level maths so dont take my word for it

 

[9fingers]

Could someone please check my maths :eusa-shifty:

The walls are:
7.5m x 1.8m = 13.5m2 x 2 = 27m2
4m x 1.8m = 7.2m2 x 2 = 14.4m2
7.5m x 300mm = 2.25m2
Total = 43.65m2

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/ ... -pack.html

4.32m2 = £30.17
43.65m2 / 4.32m2 = 10.10 x £30.17 = £304.72

Roof is:
7.6m x 4.7m = 35.7m2

https://www.insulationsuperstore.co.uk/ ... x-43m.html

4.9m2 = £62.81
35.7m2 / 4.9m2 = £7.3 x £458.52

Total Cost £763.27

I have rounded up and not subtracted the door and window cut outs, so this should be the top end, if I have worked it out correctly. Have I?

Well, in full pedant mode, in an exam you would get very low marks even zero for making a number of untrue statements. m2 can never equal £ and a few spurious factors of 2 make some equals statements untrue
However for your purposes, the answer is very close to being correct so your arithmetic (not mathematics please!) serves you well.
:lol:

You might want to have a bit of spare otherwise as the end you might be working hard to glue together all the offcuts even allowing for doors and windows.
Bob

 

[wizer]

Could someone please check my maths :eusa-shifty:

Tom, Why do you have 5 walls?

I can see how that might have been confusing :lol: One of the walls has an addtional wall on top to acheive the slope of the roof.

Bob: Thanks. I mean I didn't even sit my GCSE's, so glad I wasn't far off


On this basis, the wool batts doesn't really offer a substantial saving off the whole lot. Is PIR considerably better at insulating. It will be a PITA to pack out the frame to take the 100mm boards, but happy to do it if the end result is a better insulated building.

 

[9fingers]

I think PIR has better insulation properties than glass wool for a given thickness and also there is no risk of over compressing PIR which is one of the issues about glass wool ( less so with rigid batts)

Bob