Malcolm's Workbench (Fitting the vice)

[Malc2098]

All packaged up and ready to go in the morning. I had planned to send it today but trotted off to the post office to post this and collect a couple of things, only I left the house forgetting to pick this up! Clown!

It’ll be with Bob in a day or so. No recompense required mate, just remember me when you’re famous! [emoji1360]

I'll never be famous again, but I was once!

Thanks.

 

[Malc2098]

Perhaps it was my bad explanation. I wasn't suggesting that the bow would go completely. Just that it should be less and so you'd end up with thicker wood after prepping then if you'd tried to do it without the pre-release.

Well, maybe it might have worked. The boards did not come from the straightest part of the tree, and I had a word with the supplier about that, so I got a couple of extras I can mill from.

But, most of the strips might not lose many mms in the planing, although a couple will.

 

[Woodbloke]

If it's of any help, what I did when I made my bench top was to take it to a local cabinet maker's shop and ask them (it should be noted that a few beer tokens changed hands :eusa-whistle: ) if it could be stuffed through their humungous sanding machine (proper industrial jobbie). Saved a lot of hassle and angst in the long run trying to flatten the thing...Google is your friend (and a mobile 'fone) - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

Good call, Rob. There's two in my town.

I've still got to bottom out the design of the top yet; you know, apron or not, tool well or not, tail vice or not, split top or not, breadboards or not. You know, that sort of thing.

I really like Jimmy Mack's Rory's bench. I might pinch an idea or two from his.

 

[Woodbloke]

... apron or not, tool well or not, tail vice or not,

My two euros; definitely not for an apron (pain in the arris if you want to cramp anything to the top), unquestionably a resounding 'yes' for the second and third. If you do a tool well, make sure you have a base to it that can be removed which then means you can cramp stuff to the top from both sides; tres useful - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

Thanks, Rob. Makes absolute sense.

Just in the process of straightening out the laminations for the top.

I like the way Jimmy has 'included' his vice. Mine is the same, so I may well got for that.

I think the veritas inset vice and a row of dogs.

Dogs!!! 19mm or 20mm?!!

Is the Festool MFT 19mm and Veritas and other dogs 20?

 

[Mike G]

The reason for an apron is to provide racking resistance. If you decide not to put an apron in, then you will need some form of diagonal bracing to provide structural stiffness to resist horizontal forces from planing. Don't forget that all of your joints are likely to weaken over time, and relying on a rectilinear construction, without bracing or an apron, is a recipe for a wobbly bench.

Traditional benches don't allow for clamping because they were designed around hold-downs. Hold-downs and aprons go hand-in-hand, although a tail-vice can do much of what hold-downs can do, in a different way. Your choice.............but my number one criteria for a bench is that it is rock solid. Doing away with the apron increases the risk that it isn't.

 

[Malc2098]

Blimey!!


Decision, decisions! :?:

 

[9fingers]

@Mark & Malc

Just to let you know that the ABW for the dowels arrived this morning.

Typically I'm upto my ear 'oles with stuff having bought a flat yesterday and part way through building an ottoman bed in the workshop so today will be a write off but I will get on with the dowels in the next few days

@Malc would you be kind enough to pm me your address - yes I know I should have it somewhere from the last time I sent stuff but my filing system is not that well organised.

Cheers

Bob

 

[Woodbloke]

The reason for an apron is to provide racking resistance. If you decide not to put an apron in, then you will need some form of diagonal bracing to provide structural stiffness to resist horizontal forces from planing. Don't forget that all of your joints are likely to weaken over time, and relying on a rectilinear construction, without bracing or an apron, is a recipe for a wobbly bench.

Traditional benches don't allow for clamping because they were designed around hold-downs. Hold-downs and aprons go hand-in-hand, although a tail-vice can do much of what hold-downs can do, in a different way. Your choice.............but my number one criteria for a bench is that it is rock solid. Doing away with the apron increases the risk that it isn't.

You're right of course Mike, but there's more than one way to skin a proverbial pu$$y cat. I built a rail at the top of the framework at the rear of my bench to prevent racking and all of them are draw bolted; if anything does come a smidge loose, a tweak with a spanner tightens everything up again...I've done it once in twelve years.
The simplest way to stop the framework from racking is to screw a piece of 12mm ply to the whole back and the best way to make it rock solid is with mass, lots of it. Once the bench gets to about 130Kg (mine is heavier ) it's not going anywhere despite the pain that a user can inflict on it!
At the end of the day, it's about using it as a tool (which is what it is) and a front apron makes it bloody awkward to cramp anything to the top with a G-cramp (or similar) 'cos you have to get inside and under the apron.





Malc - I think the MFT uses 19mm dogs, check on the Ax site. UJK dogs are designed to compliment Festool stuff, but I'd advise again to check - Rob

 

[Mike G]

Yep, a solid ply back solves most of the racking issues. That's how mine works. Another way would be to bolt the whole thing to the wall.

 

[Malc2098]

@Mark & Malc

Just to let you know that the ABW for the dowels arrived this morning.

Typically I'm upto my ear 'oles with stuff having bought a flat yesterday and part way through building an ottoman bed in the workshop so today will be a write off but I will get on with the dowels in the next few days

@Malc would you be kind enough to pm me your address - yes I know I should have it somewhere from the last time I sent stuff but my filing system is not that well organised.

Cheers

Bob

Thanks for supply and posting, Mark.

Thanks for processing, Bob. No rush. I've still got to sort this top out.

 

[Malc2098]

Gents,

Thanks for your input. It has been helpful in helping me design it.

It will be short as you can see from the frame photos. The top will not be any bigger than 1.2 x 0.6m

I propose fitting the top by way of 4 x 'buttons' I think they're called, fat dowels sticking up out of the frame and holes in the underside of the top to receive them. I hope that reduces the potential for wracking in the horizontal axis.

I have a piece of used 12mm ply just waiting to be up-cycled by fixing to the back which will keep it straight in one of the horizontal axes.

I've had a jump around on it and stays pretty well stationary as it is. The weight of the top, it's vices, the small DX and a small box of drawers under will all help ad mass I think.

 

[Malc2098]

I omitted to say, I've been persuaded with an apron, (to match my Star Baker one ), I have been using the long besseys on my temporary bench anyway, and I like Rory's Bench's apron merged with vice jaws.

 

[AndyP]

FWIW Malc I have not for one minute regretted drilling holes, round, in bench top and using hold downs and veritas dogs.

 

[Doug]

One advantage of an apron is it gives you something to clamp long lengths to when working in the front vice

 

[Malc2098]

FWIW Malc I have not for one minute regretted drilling holes, round, in bench top and using hold downs and veritas dogs.

I am minded to got the dog hole route, Andy.

What diameter are yours?

 

[Woodbloke]

Two options here. If you're going to build in a tail vice of some sort, you can get away without the round dog 'oles and Veritas thingies all over the place. A tail vice and a row of square dog 'oles close to the front edge means you don't need your bench top to look like a Swiss cheese. Horses for dooberies as ever - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

I've got in my mind the veritas inset tail vice at the right hand end close to the front and a row of dog holes along the front of the top in line with it.

I also have in mind a pair of dog holes on the outer face vice grip and a double row of maybe two or three holes across the bench.

That way, I can vice clamp (horizontally) flat works.

If I have a removable tool tray base, I can then clamp vertically onto the bench top, and, if necessary, use the long blesseys to clamps down onto the apron.

I think I'm getting there. But I'm still not sure of what diameter dog holes?

 

[TrimTheKing]

Find the cheapest dogs you want to buy and make the holes that size, or make your own and make the holes that size? It really doesn't matter what size they are so long as they fit the dogs you have. Worst case is you make them too small, then you can always make them bigger using a router with a template and bearing guided cutter.

Don't over think it, just go with the flow...

 

[Malc2098]

Thanks, Mark.

Flowing!

 

[Woodbloke]

Find the cheapest dogs you want to buy and make the holes that size, or make your own and make the holes that size? It really doesn't matter what size they are so long as they fit the dogs you have. Worst case is you make them too small, then you can always make them bigger using a router with a template and bearing guided cutter.

Don't over think it, just go with the flow...

The cheapest and the best by a mile were the ones I saw at Peter Sefton's gaff some years ago. He makes these by the bucket load for the benches in his school. Simply find a piece of doweling say, 19 or 20mm and then drill the said required number of 'oles in the bench top, so that the dowel is a close fit...also chisel off a 'flat' at one end for the wood to bear against. Make the dowel long enough so it pokes out under the bench. Then, and this is the cunning bit, fit one of these bad badgers about 40mm or so (not crucial) from the end wot pokes up above the bench. Voila, you now have a bench dog that will stay where you put it and that won't mangle your LN smoother,(should it run into it :eusa-doh for the princely sum of a 100mm length of dowel and an adjustable ball catch - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

Thanks, rob, I might just do that.

LN smoother?!! I should coco! Mines a 1975 Record No 5, one owner from new, low mileage.

 

[AndyP]

FWIW Malc I have not for one minute regretted drilling holes, round, in bench top and using hold downs and veritas dogs.

I am minded to got the dog hole route, Andy.

What diameter are yours?

19mm and this was how I made sure that they were al equidistant

 

[Malc2098]

Simple and elegant.

 

[Malc2098]

Time to laminate the top.

As much curl, bow and twist taken out as I could before gluing and planed up after gluing.

The small piece in the middle will be cut in half on the angle to make the sloped wings of the tool well.

 

[Malc2098]

Like this.

 

[Woodbloke]

I would put your tool well right at the back and move that piece(s) currently at the rear into the main section of the bench; gives you a wider working surface. Just use a bit of half inch stuff at the rear, nothing fancy needed - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

I would put your tool well right at the back and move that piece(s) currently at the rear into the main section of the bench; gives you a wider working surface. Just use a bit of half inch stuff at the rear, nothing fancy needed - Rob

I would, Rob, but the top will only be supported on the two top rails of the frame, so I have included a thicker rear to maintain structural integrity of the top through its plane. ( I think!)

 

[Woodbloke]

I would put your tool well right at the back and move that piece(s) currently at the rear into the main section of the bench; gives you a wider working surface. Just use a bit of half inch stuff at the rear, nothing fancy needed - Rob

I would, Rob, but the top will only be supported on the two top rails of the frame, so I have included a thicker rear to maintain structural integrity of the top through its plane. ( I think!)

That'll be fine if the top is supported on those two top cross rails on the frame. I'd still move those back pieces to the front to give you a wider working surface as the tool well won't take any load. If you have a look at my tool well on the previous page, it's supported at the rear by a bit of beech about 15mm thick and the frame construction is pretty similar to yours - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

I'll swop those over and find some straight lengths.

I have to add a little width there, because I lost a bit in the milling and rejecting of twisted stock, so I have to get back up to the width of the top cross rails.

 

[Malc2098]

Getting there slowly. The top is now wider and has a thick back. I've left one end uncut so I can stand it on end when I'm not working on it.

Setting out to see what size of apron seems right and where my old Record 52E will go. (I bought that in about 1975!) A picture of Rory's bench is on the top to give me design inspiration!

 

[MY63]

looking good so far. Either the bench is quite small or that is a huge vice. :lol:

 

[Malc2098]

looking good so far. Either the bench is quite small or that is a huge vice. :lol:

Thanks, Michael. Yes, and 7 inches!

 

[RogerS]

Mmmm.... :eusa-think: ..bit late now but I can't help thinking that those legs are too thin. Most benches I've seen have legs that are more square in profile.

 

[Malc2098]

Mmmm.... :eusa-think: ..bit late now but I can't help thinking that those legs are too thin. Most benches I've seen have legs that are more square in profile.

Yeah, a bit like mine!

 

[Woodbloke]

Getting there slowly... to see what size of apron seems right

Personally, I would really think twice about that deep apron at the front. They are a real pain :evil: as you'll soon find out when you try and cramp stuff to the top (which I do a regular basis) - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

I have jumped up and down on the stretchers and I jumped on the top today and nothing creaked.....well not on the bench, anyway.

 

[RogerS]

I have jumped up and down on the stretchers and I jumped on the top today and nothing creaked.....well not on the bench, anyway.

It's not the up and down movement that's the issue but the sideways racking when you're sawing or chiselling etc.

 

[Malc2098]

I have jumped up and down on the stretchers and I jumped on the top today and nothing creaked.....well not on the bench, anyway.

It's not the up and down movement that's the issue but the sideways racking when you're sawing or chiselling etc.

There will be a plywood sheet screwed to the two back legs to prevent the sideways wracking.

That will wait until I have received the ABW dowels from Cheshire via Hampshire to draw bore the legs into the feet and rails.