Mike's Workshop Build (Extension & slates)

[Mike G]

It must be, as I've only ever had the one sliding compound mitre saw. I have no idea how long I've had it, but with a sharp blade it is a brilliant bit of kit. Damn, its big though.

 

[chataigner]

I missed the post with the scap bin idea originally, but found it today when following up yr last post Mike. What a great idea ! Oddly enough I made something on a similar principle, though much smaller, for storing support canes in the greenhouse a few months ago, but hadnt thought to apply the same idea to workshop scrap. I will definitely pinch that idea - thanks !

 

[Wizard9999]

Mike

Just been checking back on this thread for reference, wanted to se what you used for the breather membrane on the walls. I can see you use Powerlon Ultraperm on the roof, but you refer to using "building paper" on the walls, it is a darker blue and looks unbranded. Can you provide any more insight into what you used / what needs to be used?

As ever, thanks,
Terry.

 

[Mike G]

It is building paper, Terry, but it isn't a great product. You are better off with a timber frame breather membrane, and some of them are useable both on the walls and the roof.

 

[big soft moose]

I've just read the whole thread and that is simply epic ... its nearly the size of our ranger base workshop and better built. The only mistake is that you havent left room for a lathe :eusa-dance:

I wish i'd had you on hand when i was building my 'office' (a stud work partion off one of the workshops) - my stud work was... ahem... 'just like yours' with the rather critical exception that when it was all fixed together it wasn't quite square (as in out by about 10cm top to bottom) and i'm still not sure why

 

[PeterBassett]

Hi Mike. I've been following this and your house build thread avidly, they are both fantastic.

Can I ask about the electrical runs in your workshop? I see you are not using any trunking, simply clipping the cables to the walls tidily. Will this pass an electrical inspection to get signoff? I ask because I need to install lighting and sockets in my garage and don't want to have to do anything twice if I can help it.

Thanks

Pete

 

[Mike G]

Yes, Pete, I don't expect any problems with that so long as the clipping is to standard. Electricians say that surface mounted wires are the safest possible: you always know where they are, and won't ever therefore drill into one buried somewhere in a wall.

 

[Deejay]

Afternoon Pete

Those nice people at TLC have published this ....

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.4.1.htm

which gives the maximum spacings.

Cheers

Dave

 

[9fingers]

Afternoon Pete

Those nice people at TLC have published this ....

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.4.1.htm

which gives the maximum spacings.

Cheers

Dave

Dave, I reckon that book section of the TLC website would make a good link to include in your dropbox stuff?

I often reference their cable size calculator when people ask about cable run to workshops too.

Bob

 

[Deejay]

Morning Bob

Good idea.

It's in issue 8.

PM'd the new file.

Cheers

Dave

 

[9fingers]

Thanks Dave, just uploading to the dropbox now.

Bob

 

[PeterBassett]

That's excellent. Thanks all.

 

[Wizard9999]

Mike

Not sure why, but it crossed my mind this morning that you have still to put the slates on your workshop roof and I seem to remember that you have said in the past that the breather membrane degrades in UV light and can therefore only be left a limited time before being covered? Am I going mad?

Terry

Who knows he needs to update his own workshop thread, but at this stage with EPDM roof on and having semi-clad it is too embarrassed to do so as he can't work out why he still can't seem to get it water tight

 

[the bear]

Terry
Post some pics of your problems, someone will be able to help I'm sure
Mark

 

[Mike G]

Hi Terry.

Yeah, the stuff breaks down over time in UV light, but there is a distinct shortage of that through an English winter, and the fabric is still 100%. I am planning the removal of the slates from the main roof of the house at the moment, and they'll then go onto the workshop.

Sorry to hear you are still getting leaks. The answer will be somewhere at the edges of the walls....the top (junction with the roof), the bottom (junction with the plinth), or the corners (vertical join between feather-edge boards and the corner post). You might find that a bit of time with a silicon gun is your only answer.

 

[Commander]

Just read through this thread as well, and I have to say I enjoyed it as much as your renovation tread!

One observation I would like to make is that I was surprised to see that you guys use lead on your roofs, here by us the flashings etc are made from galvinzed steel. What is the reason for this? I would think lead is bad for the environment?

 

[9fingers]

I'd imagine that dressing steel to fit tile profiles and other shapes would be very difficult and even if you did, the hammering would compromise the galvanising.

Might also be a climate thing. Galvanised sheet used to be used here on sheds but might only have 25 years life before it rusts through. Modern equivalent buildings use a aluminium and foam sandwich with factory made fittings to match the profiles.

Bob

 

[Mike G]

Just read through this thread as well, and I have to say I enjoyed it as much as your renovation tread!

One observation I would like to make is that I was surprised to see that you guys use lead on your roofs, here by us the flashings etc are made from galvinzed steel. What is the reason for this? I would think lead is bad for the environment?

Thanks Erich.

Lead is still absolutely standard over here, probably because it is consistently doing the job it is used for better than any alternatives. I doubt very much of it ends up actually in the environment because it has a very high second-hand value, and everyone always collects old and scrap lead from building projects, and takes it in to a recycler in exchange for some good money. It is turned back into lead sheet with little in the way of embodied energy. Furthermore, it can be made into some very useful shapes without resorting to welding, and is easily worked by any jobbing builder without having to call in specialists (as is necessary with aluminium or PPC steel, for instance).

 

[Commander]

I'd imagine that dressing steel to fit tile profiles and other shapes would be very difficult and even if you did, the hammering would compromise the galvanising.

Might also be a climate thing. Galvanised sheet used to be used here on sheds but might only have 25 years life before it rusts through. Modern equivalent buildings use a aluminium and foam sandwich with factory made fittings to match the profiles.

Bob

I think perhaps the requirement is different, the flashing is placed under the tiles and is not hammered at all, just nailed to trusses or brandering. I suspect our roof designs (generalizing a bit I know...) may be less complicated hence not requiring the flashing to be shaped extensively.

Just read through this thread as well, and I have to say I enjoyed it as much as your renovation tread!

One observation I would like to make is that I was surprised to see that you guys use lead on your roofs, here by us the flashings etc are made from galvinzed steel. What is the reason for this? I would think lead is bad for the environment?

Thanks Erich.

Lead is still absolutely standard over here, probably because it is consistently doing the job it is used for better than any alternatives. I doubt very much of it ends up actually in the environment because it has a very high second-hand value, and everyone always collects old and scrap lead from building projects, and takes it in to a recycler in exchange for some good money. It is turned back into lead sheet with little in the way of embodied energy. Furthermore, it can be made into some very useful shapes without resorting to welding, and is easily worked by any jobbing builder without having to call in specialists (as is necessary with aluminium or PPC steel, for instance).

Well that all makes sense, I suspect it boils down to different construction methods and materials between the UK and RSA.

 

[AndyP]

If my roof is typical than lead also keeps the moss and lichen at bay. The only part of my roof that is moss and lichen free is beneath the lead flashing around the chimney.

 

[Mike G]

If my roof is typical than lead also keeps the moss and lichen at bay. The only part of my roof that is moss and lichen free is beneath the lead flashing around the chimney.

Copper is even better for that. In fact, some people will run a copper wire along the length of their ridge so that the cupric oxide will keep their roof free of moss and lichen.

 

[Mike G]

I think perhaps the requirement is different, the flashing is placed under the tiles and is not hammered at all, just nailed to trusses or brandering. I suspect our roof designs (generalizing a bit I know...) may be less complicated hence not requiring the flashing to be shaped extensively......

Let me translate

Branderings are like thick battens. They are strung over rafters which are generally much further apart in SA than we have here, and either support profiled metal sheeting, (inc corrugated galv. steel "iron") or interlocking concrete tiles. I don't think I have seen clay tiles in SA. I haven't worked out how flashing under tiles works, but then South Africans seem to "gunk up" lots of junctions on rooves with flexible sealants.....something we just can't rely on here. Some also paint their roof tiles!!

And yes, as Erich says, their rooves are very much simpler than our, typically, and generally of a very much lower pitch.

 

[Rod]

Lead is also used to cover complete roofs of older buildings especially Churches.
It is so valuable, that sadly lots of churches and other buildings are robbed of their lead causing lots of damage and great expense as it has to be replaced.

Rod

 

[Mike G]

Lead is also used to cover complete roofs of older buildings especially Churches......

Absolutely, and it is generally formed in a very different way from sheet lead bought on the roll. It is cast over a bed of sand, which is a highly skilled process, and one which produces a characteristic appearance to the lead.

 

[AndyP]

If my roof is typical than lead also keeps the moss and lichen at bay. The only part of my roof that is moss and lichen free is beneath the lead flashing around the chimney.

Copper is even better for that. In fact, some people will run a copper wire along the length of their ridge so that the cupric oxide will keep their roof free of moss and lichen.

I have heard of that and would do so but I would need a 3 piece ladder to get up to the roof on one end of the house and I don't fancy that at all.

 

[RogerS]

Lead is great. Provided it is laid properly. When they laid the lead down in the gulley between our two gables many, many years ago, the idiots laid down lengths that were far too long. Consequently, over the years the normal thermal cycling had them expand-contract-expand-contract until they'd developed little dams with a, guess what, a nice split in the top. So water pooled up behind the dam and then into the split hence into the wood underneath. Great.

SWMBO also bought a very nice summerhouse with a lead roof. Only they didn't lay the lead properly or leave enough overlap and so rain is blown up underneath and again thence into the wood underneath and dripping onto the floor. Despite my best endeavours, I've not been able to seal it up properly. Water is still getting in.

 

[Commander]

I will see if I can get some photos of what things look like over here, our climate is much dryer so moss on roofs are almost non existent, same goes for the danger of wood rotting under the tiles I guess.

 

[Rod]

Moss is a real pain in the backside here - not only filling the gutters but making a mess on the surrounding paths and patios?
The birds seem to love it, looking for insects but in doing so scatter it around and off the roof.
I've heard of the copper wire treatment but never seen it done and much too scary for me to contemplate DIY.

Rod

 

[Commander]

I was able to take some photos of local roofs over the weekend, Mike, if you don't mind I will post them here, if you guys are interested?

 

[Mike G]

I've no problem with your photos going here. Think of it as "matters arising"......

 

[Rod]

We like photos [emoji3]

Rod

 

[Commander]

Ok so as requested, here are some photos:

This is what most of our tiles look like, there are some other designs available, and then there are the thatch roofs as well as roofs from corrugated iron etc etc, But a large proportion of houses use clay tiles, they are fairly big and pretty heavy (as you can see from the bricks in the background). They have holes for nailing to the brandering, but that is usually only used in windy areas, and then also only on the to 2 or 3 rows as the weight is normally enough to stop the roof from blowing away.



Here are some photos to show the general look and angle.



Here is the flashing under the tiles but above the brandering. (some of the photos are a bit unclear, but I wasn't about to start lifting tiles in my Sunday best! :lol:



Here is a photo showing the flashing where the tiles meet a wall, it has a different profile to the flashing used for the valleys.


At the ends of the roof we use fascia boards (they use to be made from asbestos but I'm pretty sure these days they are made from cement) You can also use tiles made specifically for this purpose.



At the ridge of the roof a curved tile is used and is cemented on. In some problem areas we use a special fabric roll that is painted on with a brush and the appropriate watertight goo to stop leaks.




Here you can see the ends of the roof trusses, as well as a section of brandering, as you can see they are pretty beefy to handle the weight.


Under the tiles there is normally a plastic sheet to stop water in the event of very heavy rains and or driving winds, although I don't think this is actually a standard (the flats built by big developers seem to largely skimp on this detail without too much issues). I hope this was somewhat clear, if there are any questions I will try and answer as best I can!

 

[Mike G]

Those "under-tile" flashings are valleys. And that has to be the worst constructed valley I have ever seen on a modern western house!!! Don't your guys own angle grinders?

The principle difference between SA rooves and ours is the lack of "felt" (nowadays replaced by a waterproof and breathable membrane). This is a strong second line of defence against wind-blown water-penetration.

The rest is pretty orthodox, and quite comparable with modern estate-type houses in the UK, although we would never build with such shallow roof pitches, or with such widely-spaced rafters. Also, you never see water-proof jollop applied to the outside of a roof over here like in your 2nd and 3rd last photos.

Something that UK members might not know is that parts of South Africa (the "high veld"......Johannesburg and surrounds) have thunderstorms which are so severe that hail will write off any car that is left outside. Consider the type of roof you would have to construct to cope with that!

Anyway, nice to see the photos. Thanks for that, Erich.

 

[Commander]

Those "under-tile" flashings are valleys. And that has to be the worst constructed valley I have ever seen on a modern western house!!! Don't your guys own angle grinders?

The principle difference between SA rooves and ours is the lack of "felt" (nowadays replaced by a waterproof and breathable membrane). This is a strong second line of defence against wind-blown water-penetration.

The rest is pretty orthodox, and quite comparable with modern estate-type houses in the UK, although we would never build with such shallow roof pitches, or with such widely-spaced rafters. Also, you never see water-proof jollop applied to the outside of a roof over here like in your 2nd and 3rd last photos.

Something that UK members might not know is that parts of South Africa (the "high veld"......Johannesburg and surrounds) have thunderstorms which are so severe that hail will write off any car that is left outside. Consider the type of roof you would have to construct to cope with that!

Anyway, nice to see the photos. Thanks for that, Erich.

Hahaha, yes the question however seems to be, do we use them? And it appears to be a resounding no! Probably a drawback of the much cheaper labour here in RSA, so often we see some poor quality of work...

My dad and I have spent a large amount of time on that roof trying to fix some of the issues that was created by the poor craftsmanship with which some parts were built.

With regards to the thunder storms, we had one in November 2 years back that in places punched holes straight through tile roofs, so it can get very bad, luckily hail stones that big are a bit of an exception, rather than a rule.

 

[9fingers]

Thanks for the photos.
Your photo of the steel flashing is where we would use lead and dress it down to the profile of the tiles.

With your low angle tiles and the flashing that looks to be little more than a deflector for falling rain, it only takes a bit of wind to blow the water up & under the flashing.

Just the way different folks do different things eh?

Bob

 

[kirkpoore1]

Interesting tile roof. I note that your tiles aren't staggered, so that the seams are in line. I would think this might pose yet another potential leak issue. (But my experience with tile roofs is limited to helping carry tiles onto the roof of a house my dad built back in the early 70's. My sisters and I had to carry a quota up every day, three tiles per trip (7 lbs apiece) up a 2x12 to the nearest corner of the roof, and then over to wherever my dad was working. )

As for the flashing, I've never seen or heard of anything other than aluminum or galvanized steel here in the US, except on historical buildings where copper (or, I suppose, lead) might be used.

Kirk

 

[Commander]

Interesting tile roof. I note that your tiles aren't staggered, so that the seams are in line. I would think this might pose yet another potential leak issue. (But my experience with tile roofs is limited to helping carry tiles onto the roof of a house my dad built back in the early 70's. My sisters and I had to carry a quota up every day, three tiles per trip (7 lbs apiece) up a 2x12 to the nearest corner of the roof, and then over to wherever my dad was working. )

As for the flashing, I've never seen or heard of anything other than aluminum or galvanized steel here in the US, except on historical buildings where copper (or, I suppose, lead) might be used.

Kirk

I would say under normal circumstances the roof doesn't actually leak (except for the areas where the original job was botched), however under different weather conditions it may be another story.

Here are a couple of links to the 4x4 community forum with some hail we got at the end of 2013, sorry for all the Afrikaans, the photos are at least self explanatory!

http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/sho ... light=hail

http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/sho ... light=hail

http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/sho ... light=hail

 

[Mike G]

Interesting tile roof. I note that your tiles aren't staggered, so that the seams are in line. I would think this might pose yet another potential leak issue.......Kirk

Kirk, that is the fundamental difference between traditional plain tiles, pantiles and slates on one hand (shingles/ shakes, too), and interlocking tiles on the other. The modern interlocking ones have a much more complicated profile designed to allow them to overlap less than the older ones I mention (which are always 2 tiles deep anywhere on the roof), and as a by-product, they line up "vertically" down the roof.

Mike

 

[PeterBassett]

Could I pose another electrics question?

Would this
http://www.screwfix.com/p/ip65-isolator ... -25a/15054
be what I need (or even suitable for, ats)
making a 16 amp feed for a tablesaw safe when plugged into one of these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/abb-surface-s ... ip44/1858f

Thanks again.

Pete

 

[9fingers]

You only need to pull the plug to isolate the tablesaw safely but if you want to prevent someone else using it for example you can use the isolator you linked to and fit a padlock to lock it in the off position.

Quite likely that both items will be cheaper from toolstation and they offer free post on over £10.

I find Screwfix are getting greedy these days and only use them if I have no choice. Stock levels can be poor in the shops too.

Bob